Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

[Tefal]

Have we really reached the point where people are spouting a conspiracy theory that May has made/stolen a Russian chemical weapon to murder a former Russian spy on UK soil in a flase flag operation in order to divert press attention from school meals?



Really?

 

[Tefal]

Is it likely ? No
It is possible ? Sure, stranger things have happened

Let's not forget nobody has even died from this botched assassination attempt that a large majority are happy to blame Russia on the evidence of "They created the nerve agent 30 years ago so it MUST be them"

There's absolutely nothing wrong though with throwing theories around on why and who did it as long as people acknowledge them as theories and not fact, just like it's only a theory that Russia did it because we've seen very little on facts from all of this apart from the media regurgitating May's narrative.

Yeah I mean it' not like Russia only recently killed another spy in the uk using an exotic method.


Although I suppose this time they decided not to use a very easily traced radioactive agent

 

[Secret_Window]

Have we really reached the point where people are spouting a conspiracy theory that May has made/stolen a Russian chemical weapon to murder a former Russian spy on UK soil in a flase flag operation in order to divert press attention from school meals?



Really?

Some people might think that, but I think the issue here is more that some of us want to be sure there isn't any dodgy Intel like with Iraq. It's not just enough to say trust me. I'm reserving judgement until I see more evidence. As I highlighted earlier, I think it probably is entirely possible this is a monumental screw up by the Russians since they have a track record of these things, but it's hardly suprising people question May when people have been lied to before on Brexit, Iraq, Libya, various deals with countries like Saudi Arabia. It's not really surprising the distrust is an all time high.

 

[Angilion]

As a neutral I have to say you just don't threaten Russia, they earned that right after 20 million+ casualties in ww2 and still winning. I hope things deescalate, there is no scenario that Britain comes out as a winner. Even if Russia assassinated a traitor on british soil, so be it.

There is always a lot of propaganda against Russia. A secretly developed nerve agent that UK managed to identify in a couple of days yet refuses to share evidence, one month before Russian elections in a public place? I doubt it... I'm a bit sad that the cynical brits are blinded by patriotism.

It was a secret 30+ years ago. It's on Wikipedia now. With diagrams of its structure. It was made to be unindentifiable to standard chemical weapons tests of NATO 40-odd years ago, not to modern testing. The victims were very obviously poisoned by something and they were obvious targets for the Russian state, so known Russian chemical weapons would be an obvious thing to test for. It's not surprising that it was identified. It's more surprising that they victims aren't dead - used properly that stuff will kill people very efficiently indeed. Maybe it was an old sample that has degraded over time.

What makes you think this will have any effect on the Russian elections, let alone that it was intended to?

What does patriotism have to do with it? A person who was an obvious target for assassination by Russia was targetted for assassination using a toxin, which Russia has done before. Given the available evidence, Russian authorities, most likely Putin since he has a lot of control, are the most likely suspect.

Also, Putin didn't die defending Russia in WW2. He has nothing to do with that.

The only suspicious thing is the apparent lack of willingness to share evidence. Not with Russia, obviously, as that would be silly and pointless. It should be shared with the established global body for dealing with chemical weapons, in accordance with the established protocol for doing so.

 

[Angilion]

I like some of his ideas too - and I’m no fan, believe me - but his ideology is completely at odds with the realities of life and the increasing threats we face from all sides.

He was wholly unstatesman like (as usual) and just undermined the united front the House of Commons - for all its faults - presents in times of national threat.

I’ve been far from impressed by Theresa May since the election but, have to say, I’m glad it’s her who’s responding to the Russians at the despatch box , I dread to think what his response would have been.

I agree. Best of a bad job. A sad state of affairs, but it's what we've got. I felt sorry for the USA having to choose between Trump and Clinton, then we got the same "which bad choice is less bad?" choice.

 

[Angilion]

In a war with Russia nobody wins

Especially the vast majority of Russians.

 

[StriderX]

I still wonder why Russia would... well allow them to survive, they usually aren't that clumsy. I just find it unwholesome to not release the evidence as requested in the agreement signed by the UK itself on the matter, it's supposed to be transparent for a reason.

I don't also get this idea that i'm supposed to trust my proven incompetent and shady government (that says it's honest all the time), that has in the past kept reports secret simply because "it'd look bad" to the minister involved, Russia hating is in, which is "fine" in the context of the cold war babies, but come on... The issue, is we aren't that much better than Russia in reality, sometimes people get prosecuted for being "obviously" corrupt, but that's about it, its still all theatre and useless boondongles to dangle in front of people.

Quite frankly if you gave people the political "aptitude" to vote on Brexit, then you should trust them to believe your evidence, as it's us that need to believe it, not other countries (I mean if its legit, then it's solved anyway).

 

[Secret_Window]

I still wonder why Russia would... well allow them to survive, they usually aren't that clumsy. I just find it unwholesome to not release the evidence as requested in the agreement signed by the UK itself on the matter, it's supposed to be transparent for a reason.

I don't also get this idea that i'm supposed to trust my proven incompetent and shady government (that says it's honest all the time), that has in the past kept reports secret simply because "it'd look bad" to the minister involved, Russia hating is in, which is "fine" in the context of the cold war babies, but come on... The issue, is we aren't that much better than Russia in reality, sometimes people get prosecuted for being "obviously" corrupt, but that's about it, its still all theatre and useless boondongles to dangle in front of people.

Quite frankly if you gave people the political "aptitude" to vote on Brexit, then you should trust them to believe your evidence, as it's us that need to believe it, not other countries (I mean if its legit, then it's solved anyway).

It's bad enough that our government can't even govern properly, especially with Brexit. How are we supposed to believe they can be responsible over tension with Russia, when everything else is a mess? I don't know what to believe. But even if you go back to last year, and look at the terrorist attacks on our own soil, which some experts were saying we already had Intel on but had failed to deal with, then it really makes you wonder how we can ever feel safe and secure and in trust of this government. Not to say Labour are any better, but just that the whole thing is a shambles.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Indeed. Has Corbyn literally just stepped out of the 70s? The days of the communist USSR and his socialist brothers are long gone.

Oh it gets better he's consistently defended Russia/USSR and blamed tensions etc on the west/NATO over his career. His sessions at the despatch box doing his best Lenin impression is even better. He even has the whole lenin hat thing going on. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Silly Goose On The Loose]

Oh it gets better he's consistently defended Russia/USSR and blamed tensions etc on the west/NATO over his career. His sessions at the despatch box doing his best Lenin impression is even better. He even has the whole lenin hat thing going on. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

He signed a letter condemning the Soviet Union...

 

[robgmun]

He signed a letter condemning the Soviet Union...

Oh no...that'll show them

 

[Silly Goose On The Loose]

Oh no...that'll show them

I'm simply pointing out the idea he was sympathetic to the USSR is nonsense, like all the bile written about him.

 

[Malevolence]

He signed a letter condemning the Soviet Union...

It said OXO on buses, but they didn't sell the stuff.

 

[Silly Goose On The Loose]

It said OXO on buses, but they didn't sell the stuff.

Do you have any evidence he is sympathetic to Russia? The Tories receive millions from Russian donors, BTW.

 

[LOAM]

It said OXO on buses, but they didn't sell the stuff.

Well on that basis are you suggesting we believe nothing at all they say and do, or is it purely selective and reserved for those that wear a hat?

 

[RDM]

I notice she managed to remove free school dinners from tax credit families yesterday whilst no one was looking, that was convenient.

If you look in to this a little bit more than the Labour press release you will find that this isnt the case at all. But then, why actually research something when you can just believe any old rubbish that supports your political world view?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...elling-the-full-story-about-free-school-meals

 

[LOAM]

If you look in to this a little bit more than the Labour press release you will find that this isnt the case at all. But then, why actually research something when you can just believe any old rubbish that supports your political world view?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...elling-the-full-story-about-free-school-meals

Well you'll be delighted to know I didn't read it all, I watched it on the channel 4 news. If you even read your own link you would see how bad it is.

This month, the government announced that they’re going to introduce a means test so that if you’re on Universal Credit and you’re earning more than £7,400 from work, your children will no longer be entitled to free school meals if they’re in Year 3 or above.

The government estimates: “A typical family earning around this threshold, depending on their exact circumstances, would have a total annual household income of between £18,000 and £24,000 once benefits are taken into account.”

It's been suggested by the IFS that 5 million children will be living in poverty in the next 5 years and this is only adding to the figures. So yes labour guff is just guff but it's not detracting from what the conservatives have just done.

But it's perhaps a topic for a different thread

 

[Firestar_3x]

The only suspicious thing is the apparent lack of willingness to share evidence. Not with Russia, obviously, as that would be silly and pointless. It should be shared with the established global body for dealing with chemical weapons, in accordance with the established protocol for doing so.

We are seeking independent verification through the OPCW, no doubt samples have also been sent to the USA and verified given the strength of the US support.

 

[Nasher]

This isn't about hurting Putin's election. We all know it's not a real election, so why bother? Putin is going to win no matter what, that's a fact.

No one else has motivation and the west does not bump off like that. When was the last time a British or American defector was murdered? Is Ed Snowdon still alive?

 

[jpaul]

If you are listening to Boris on r4 today, he was unable to provide any reasonable response on legitimacy for Macron's (representatives) comments below,
(May has not offered a reply on such comments - so we have to rely on other government representatives)

A spokesman for President Macron slammed Prime Minister Theresa May’s rush to blame Russia for the nerve agent attack in Salisbury, saying that, in contrast to the Tories, the French government doesn’t do ‘fantasy politics‘ and that France would wait for “definitive conclusions” before deciding who is to blame.

Macron’s spokesman Benjamin Griveaux also said that “We don’t do fantasy politics. Once the elements are proven, then the time will come for decisions to be made.” and that France would wait for evidence that the “facts were completely true before taking a position.“

En France, le porte-parole du gouvernement, Benjamin Griveaux, s’est exprimé. « Nous attendons les conclusions définitives et que les faits soient parfaitement avérés avant de prendre position sur ce type de sujet, comme c'est l'habitude de notre diplomatie », a-t-il déclaré, soulignant que Paris agit toujours « en fonction d'éléments avérés, prouvés et hautement authentifiés »

EDIT Boris interview http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tyzvx#play 2:10
which the BBC subsequently mis-report as priniciplay addressing 'a new cold war ?'