Challenging a speed camera ticket due to no "change of speed" sign

[Kenai]

I don't think they'd be too happy about everyone doing 30mph whenever there's streetlights unless they are 100% sure it's 40.....

Well it would be easy to be sure it was 40 and not 30, there would be 40 signs.

But in actual fact, with the new 20mph limit, that advice (streetlights = 30mph unless sign posted higher than that) is now wrong anyway.

It's not wrong, because 20s will be signed and have repeaters, just as a 40 would. (Wales being the exception)

And that new 20mph limit also means one can no longer confirm the main road you are on is a 40mph by looking down a side street and seeing the rear of the 30mph signs.

This is an utterly nonsense way of trying to determine the limit of the road you're actually on anyway, looking at the back of signs on other roads, no wonder you find it so difficult

My essential point is that speed limits are becoming more and more complicated

They're not though

 

[Rroff]

Surely speed limits are signposted, and if they're not then you apply the logic stated in the highway code.

Essentially, if you're unsure and you're not in a built up residential area then it's going to be 30.

To be fair easier said than done in an unfamiliar area and I've been down where this is a couple of times or so and it is not a well signposted area. Fortunately my car has a speed limit recognition system which is usually accurate.

I have some sympathy as I find some areas really poor for driving through these days if you aren't familiar with the area with either minimum effort job done or it is information overload that some people, including myself, will struggle with the first time encountering it.

 

[sigma]

To be fair easier said than done in an unfamiliar area and I've been down where this is a couple of times or so and it is not a well signposted area. Fortunately my car has a speed limit recognition system which is usually accurate.

I have some sympathy as I find some areas really poor for driving through these days if you aren't familiar with the area with either minimum effort job done or it is information overload that some people, including myself, will struggle with the first time encountering it.

Yeah I have some sympathy too, people make mistakes.

The ideal thought process is that if you're unfamiliar then slowing down isn't going to harm you. If you're unsure, stick to 30. In my experience 20mph zones are very clearly signposted.

You could also use Sat Nav to help although it can be wrong.

Near me there are some road works, or should I say there were some road works that have now finished but they've left the temporary 30 signs up, I'm the only one who seems to stick to it.

 

[SheffMan]

>>And that new 20mph limit also means one can no longer confirm the main road you are on is a 40mph by looking down a side street and seeing the rear of the 30mph signs.<<

This is an utterly nonsense way of trying to determine the limit of the road you're actually on anyway, looking at the back of signs on other roads, no wonder you find it so difficult

That's one of the things I was taught on the speed awareness course ! You know, the one you advised me to go on ?
And it is good advice, or it was till the advent of loads of 20mph side roads....

>>SheffMan said: I don't think they'd be too happy about everyone doing 30mph whenever there's streetlights unless they are 100% sure it's 40.....<<

>Kenai said : Well it would be easy to be sure it was 40 and not 30, there would be 40 signs.<

Yeah yeah, it's easy to tell with 100% certainty at all times you're in a 40mph limit zone. That's why nobody ever gets a ticket for thinking it's 40 when it's actually only 30, in fact it would note surprise me if it the most common ticket issued (certainly for "accidental speeding") ?
TBH I think you're arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Kenai]

Yeah yeah, it's easy to tell with 100% certainty at all times you're in a 40mph limit zone.

It is. Like before, if you struggle with this, maybe some refresher lessons are in order.

That's why nobody ever gets a ticket for thinking it's 40 when it's actually only 30, in fact it would note surprise me if it the most common ticket issued (certainly for "accidental speeding") ?

This is because they're too incompetent to understand that if there are no 40 signs, it's not a 40 limit.

TBH I think you're arguing for the sake of it.

A little bit, mostly because it's amusing how desperately you're looking for any reason at all, no matter how tenuous, for this to not be your own fault and avoid taking responsibility for it like a grown up.

It's almost at the point I'm wondering if i've been sucked into some sort of windup thread, because normally people would have the humility to admit they just made a mistake rather than keep posting more and more obscure reasons it's all unfair and wrong.

 

[tom_e]

Out of interest what difference would having local knowledge make if there's no signs there anyway? Do people pass down the knowledge of the speed limits to their kids or something?

 

[Nigel Kingdon]

I just quickly read through the thread. I couldn't see if this had been posted previously but stick a post on here. There are real Lawers and traffic law experts on that site. Advice is free. If that's a known cash cow, they'll know. If the signs are dodgy they'll know. If it needs up to date photos someone may be able to get them for you.

Personally, I hate that bit of road, it's only purpose is revenue generation.

 

[SheffMan]

Out of interest what difference would having local knowledge make if there's no signs there anyway?

I don't know about you and your local area but I know what all the speed limits are around the North of Sheffield.
We have since discovered that there are now some speed limit signs, but not many and they are rather confusing, particularly as that speed camera is on a Dual Carriageway on a designated "primary route".

 

[SheffMan]

I think what sums up my position on speed cameras is a "Tramgate" in Sheffield not far from me. The latter does have a sign but for people not used to such things it would be very easy to miss, even more so if they're a bit lost and stressed (just like we were in Bournemouth ! ).
It is a regular occurrence to see vehicles going through the "gate" and it is pretty certain that the great majority of them are not local drivers. A classic example of non local people being more likely to be prosecuted due to ignorance, which, to me, is plainly unfair. So much so that I think if the "offender" is non local (and a first time ticket for them, that "card" can only be used once ! ) they should be let off.

 

[Bear]

I think what sums up my position on speed cameras is a "Tramgate" in Sheffield not far from me. The latter does have a sign but for people not used to such things it would be very easy to miss, even more so if they're a bit lost and stressed (just like we were in Bournemouth ! ).
It is a regular occurrence to see vehicles going through the "gate" and it is pretty certain that the great majority of them are not local drivers. A classic example of non local people being more likely to be prosecuted due to ignorance, which, to me, is plainly unfair. So much so that I think if the "offender" is non local (and a first time ticket for them, that "card" can only be used once ! ) they should be let off.

Ignorance of the law is not a mitigating factor. I can’t believe you are happy wasting so much energy on this for what £35? It’s such a small amount, who cares, just pay it and get on with your life

 

[SheffMan]

Ignorance of the law is not a mitigating factor. I can’t believe you are happy wasting so much energy on this for what £35? It’s such a small amount, who cares, just pay it and get on with your life

I am aware ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, but that's a bit of a catch all isn't it ? A bit like those signs in shops "we have zero tolerance to abuse" (so don't even think of complaining about anything !). As my post above about the Tramgate makes clear, it's not the money, it's the principle.
We are very different people, I feel genuinely sorry for non locals people getting caught (out of ignorance) by Hillsborough's Tramgate camera, but I assume from your tone you would not.

And in the case of speeding fines it is not "£35", it's £90 and three points on ones licence, or £120 for a speed awareness course if you are "lucky" enough to be offered one.

 

[Bear]

I am aware ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, but that's a bit of a catch all isn't it ? A bit like those signs in shops "we have zero tolerance to abuse" (so don't even think of complaining about anything !). As my post above about the Tramgate makes clear, it's not the money, it's the principle.
We are very different people, I feel genuinely sorry for non locals people getting caught (out of ignorance) by Hillsborough's Tramgate camera, but I assume from your tone you would not.

And in the case of speeding fines it is not "£35", it's £90 and three points on ones licence, or £120 for a speed awareness course if you are "lucky" enough to be offered one.

We all make mistakes and it’s understandable when you might be in an unfamiliar place, you may make a mistake but if you do something and it ends up in a fine, then it is what it is.

Complaining and abuse isn’t the same thing is it, it’s dependent on your tone etc. Complain in a calm rational manner and no one can say it’s abusive

Fair enough on the speeding fine, apologies.

 

[SheffMan]

This is priceless (from Sabre Roads) :

 

[Sin_Chase]

This is priceless (from Sabre Roads) :

You just take an average to get the limit right? Ezpz!

 

[Haggisman]

To a point I would agree, but in the real world when you have a queue of cars up your backside it's not quite as easy as that is it ?

Unless the driver of one of those "cars up your backside" has somehow hacked your car remotely and taken over control of it then yes... yes it is.

Ironically on most "motoring" forums there are people very disparaging of people driving too slowly as they see it ! I don't think they'd be too happy about everyone doing 30mph whenever there's streetlights unless they are 100% sure it's 40.....

Oh no... anyway.gif

Whether they are "happy" or not is of zero relevance to your driving. If they want to speed and risk a ticket, then let them get on with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is priceless (from Sabre Roads) :

I'd be surprised if that was a real image, but I have definitely seen similarly confusing sign placement on some motorways/dual carriageways where there's a temporary restricted limit e.g. for road works, directly followed by an NSL sign. Common sense obviously means the limit is still 50 while you're in the roadworks, but potentially shaky legal grounds if you were to be caught "speeding" by doing NSL!

 

[SheffMan]

Unless the driver of one of those "cars up your backside" has somehow hacked your car remotely and taken over control of it then yes... yes it is.


Oh no... anyway.gif

Whether they are "happy" or not is of zero relevance to your driving. If they want to speed and risk a ticket, then let them get on with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I'd be surprised if that was a real image, but I have definitely seen similarly confusing sign placement on some motorways/dual carriageways where there's a temporary restricted limit e.g. for road works, directly followed by an NSL sign. Common sense obviously means the limit is still 50 while you're in the roadworks, but potentially shaky legal grounds if you were to be caught "speeding" by doing NSL!

I hear what you say and is theoretically, certainly legally, unarguable.
Just out of interest would you be in favour of a requirement for a clear speed limit repeater at (or immediately before) a speed camera site, and if not why not ?

 

[Haggisman]

I hear what you say and is theoretically, certainly legally, unarguable.
Just out of interest would you be in favour of a requirement for a clear speed limit repeater at (or immediately before) a speed camera site, and if not why not ?

I wouldn't be opposed to it, I just don't think it necessary. I'd rather the money/effort was spent on more traffic officers on the road to catch other offences such as tailgating, lane discipline, dangerous overtaking, mobile phone use, etc.. Speed is an easy target as it's (relatively) simple to measure, however it's a very small part of road safety, and arguably someone driving 35 in a 30 whilst paying close attention is less dangerous than someone sticking rigorously to the speed limit while half their attention is focused on fiddling with their radio or phone.

I do however agree with what you posted above about some non-safety related contraventions such as the bus gate you mentioned, and having a "1-strike" rule would be fair without letting repeat offenders get away with it. The Dartford crossing does this I believe - if it's your first time forgetting to pay the toll then you get a sternly worded letter asking you to pay the original toll amount, plus a warning that next time it will be a fine.

 

[Fr0dders]

A few points.

1 - I am not the only one who feels the speed limit at that camera is unclear.

2 - I am aware of the street light rule as I did a speed awareness course 6 years ago, the street light rule is useful but not infallible in the real world with cars flying past you and/or a queue behind you.......
It was not coincidental that 2019 speeding ticket (35mph in a 30....) was also when I was on holiday in an unfamiliar location. I have spoke to many friends and colleagues and it's the same story for almost all of the speeding tickets they have had, and none of them are drivers going around speeding and only getting caught because they don't know where the cameras are. They got caught because the speed limit was unclear and unexpected. Exactly like mine.

3 - The bottom line : Bearing the above in mind you appear not to think the speed limit at speed cameras should be made be clear enough that local knowledge makes you less likely to get prosecuted ?

As others have said, just take the speed awareness course. You can attend them remotely now, you don't have to attend in person. My son got done recently and he didn't find it that bad.

Most speed cameras are purely there to generate cash and nothing to do with road safety. Where there is a road safety argument, they'll nearly always be done in such a way to maximise catching people out as opposed to actually slowing traffic. Classic case round here is the mobile camera vans that get parked in the spots designed for maximum revenue. There are several round here, placed on the cusp of where a 40 limit turns into a 30 limit, and placed in such a way that there is a blind corner, crest etc.. just after the change that they plant the mobile cameras right on so if you don't slow down to exactly 30 at the change in the limit, BANG, go round the corner and they've got you.

They could put the cameras anywhere in the 30 limit, but they choose to put them right at the point where the limit changes to catch people out who haven't slowed down quick enough.

Don't think any less of yourself for having been caught, just accept it as the risk driving somewhere where you don't know the tricks of the local scamera vans and got caught out. Get lectured for a couple of hours and move on.

 

[SheffMan]

They could put the cameras anywhere in the 30 limit, but they choose to put them right at the point where the limit changes to catch people out who haven't slowed down quick enough.

I agree with that being a bit underhand.

 

[SheffMan]

Don't think any less of yourself for having been caught, just accept it as the risk driving somewhere where you don't know the tricks of the local scamera vans and got caught out. Get lectured for a couple of hours and move on.

The only time I speed is by accident, i.e. if the limit is unclear.
I did a speed awareness course 6 years ago* and found it very useful and quite amusing as the pair doing it had it off to "T". Online is cheaper for them (though I note they haven't reduced the price....) and more convenient for the person taking the course, but in some ways in person would be better if their goal really is reduced speeding.

* Interesting story behind that one. I had Ford Focus at the time which has a stock fault of dry joints on the instrument panel PCB causing spurious electronic issues. I stripped it all down resoldered the joints and solved the problem. But in order to do the job the needle had to be removed from the speedo and I thought I'd get the speedo spot on for accuracy on when I rebuilt it. Big mistake...... Normally speedos are 5 to 10% fast but I had forgotten mine was now spot on when I was driving at an indicated 35 past a speed camera. I was actually doing 35 and got done. I discovered that in Lincolnshire (where it happened) if I'd been going 1mph slower I would not have got a ticket ! Had the speedo been say 7% fast my indicated 35 would have been an actual 33mph, and no speeding ticket.....