Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[Hagar]

Society has decided. That is why we elect politicians to take evidence, make laws and pass them. If there is a demand for a modified law due to increased medical technique that can be done.
At the time of the law passing, women were dying by using a coat hanger, an excess of alcohol, drugs or both to abort an unwanted baby. Do we wish a return to such practices?
It is largely for women to decide whether they want to carry a baby to full term otherwise it is a form of tyranny by a male to force it.
It is not for courts to decide, it is not for clerics to decide (ie the pope). It is for governments to make a law which assists society and enables some harmony for these difficult decisions.

Complete prohibition rarely ever works for anything.

 

[Devilman]

Yes I agree that women have been saved. But you never posted data did you? that would be a NO.
Please post the data you have about this.

Does the number matter? Is one worth more than another? how about 10? or 100? Is there some "golden number" or ratio at which you would be willing to accept it? Is the "pre-life" collection of cells that have been dividing for 4 weeks entitled to more freedoms and rights than the living, breathing human being carrying it?

This is the crux of the matter.

Does the life of an actual, here-and-now, living, breathing human being have less value to you than that of an embryo ?

Flip the issue on it's head for a moment... Suddenly people (majority women) consider that "all" life is sacred and should be protected with such.... zeal...
That weekly hand shuffle you used to have back when you were 15 that you thought nobody knew about? Well that's murder now! How can you sleep with the screams of all those millions of sperm you innocently slaughtered into a kleenex?
But there is a solution! We can force all males to undergo a reversible vasectomy to prevent any "unnecessary ejaculations" or "accidental genocides" in the night.

Do you see the problem here? Forcing a person to go through significant physical, hormonal, biological and mental changes because members of the opposite sex think they should tell them what do with their bodies. - Men should have no say in (the passing of) any legislation regarding abortion.

Planned Parenthood in the US makes $1.6 billion, including approximately $530 million in government funding. https://www.forbes.com/companies/planned-parenthood-federation-of-america/

They have 600 health clinics in the U.S alone. They give foetal tissue to other companies. I hope ALL the women who have abortions know this.
Most likely not. It's all about the money. If it wasn't. Then the company would not be around.

All these complaints seem to be solely centered around issues with legislation and regulation with the good old US of A, not an issue of the medical procedure itself. If the US Government are willing and able to allow them to operate in such a manner and gain such funding, surely your issue's should be with the US government itself, not whether or not a woman should be allowed autonomy over her own body , or dare I say it... Not have her body dictated to by another person.

 

[Haggisman]

*Edit* In fact quite honestly I feel like a topic such as this, Any legislation being made in regards to pregnancy / abortion should *only* be voted on by bona-fide "XX-chromosome's". Who are we (as men) to think we should have ANY say at all on this topic, much less dictate legislation and laws surrounding it?

Seems like a good solution to the problem!

One other thing I would like to add, what about the father in all this. I know a few guys who where absolutely crushed when they found out there partner had abortion, as they wanted to be a dad.

If he's the one that's pregnant and has to carry the baby along with all the risk that entails then sure. Until that point then while he can obviously make his case, I'm afraid that ultimately the decision is 100% up to the mother.

-------

It's very telling that the pro-life proponents have to resort to saying things like "celebrating abortion", trying to claim that never existing is the same as death, and comparing an abortion to removing a wart in order to back up their arguments - sadly any valid points they might have are getting lost in the noise (perhaps that's the point, so they can get away with causing the suffering of thousands of women and children?)

 

[Harlequin]

What is of interest is that in the bulk of the EU - abortion is only allowed in the 1st Trimester (free access) - after 12/14 weeks it requires 2 doctors and medical reasons to be performed - except in the UK and The Netherlands (24 weeks) and Sweden (18 weeks)

 

[bigmike20vt]

I do sometimes feel like some (emphasis on some) men are so against abortions because it's something women have full control over

really?

i am painting with a wide brush but IF i had £1000 to bet, i would suggest there are more men angry at the fact that they desperately do not want a child but feel trapped into having one and thus paying support than there are men who desperately want to have a baby but the mother insists on aborting.

there are definitely people in both camps and it really sucks either way..... Us men really do get the short end of the stick when it comes to deciding on whether to have a baby or not......... however this is sadly how it has to be. As i said earlier in the topic, until babies can be developed invitro - in which case in theory if the mum wanted an abortion but the dad didnt the baby could be removed and still survive with the dad getting custody and the mum paying maintanence .. but this is not the case and may never be the case... Until that time the mum should get the final say as she is the one carrying the child......................


but like i said if i had to bet £1000 of my own money which camp had more men in i would be quite confident i could get it right.

 

[GreatAuk]

I was looking this up yesterday out of curiosity, and interestingly despite the prevailing narrative most sources seem to show men and women having very similar attitudes to abortion.

Eg
https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-34/moral-issues.aspx
"Men and women are equally as likely to be supportive of abortion;
there are no differences between the sexes in their views for any of
the scenarios we asked about."

Or including more global data for comparison:

In the U.S. and Europe, women are about as likely as men to favor legal abortion

In many European countries and the United States, women do not differ significantly from men in their views about abortion.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[bigmike20vt]

I was looking this up yesterday out of curiosity, and interestingly despite the prevailing narrative most sources seem to show men and women having very similar attitudes to abortion.

Eg
https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-34/moral-issues.aspx
"Men and women are equally as likely to be supportive of abortion;
there are no differences between the sexes in their views for any of
the scenarios we asked about."

I can believe that............
however i know a couple of women who were (are AFAIK) supporting of the right to abortion in principle but fully admit once they were pregnant - even unplanned - they realised how much harder it would be to go through with hypothetically even if they were initially planning too)

supporting something != being able to do it yourself. Women definitely get the harder end of it imo when push comes to shove

 

[Junglist]

really?

i am painting with a wide brush but IF i had £1000 to bet, i would suggest there are more men angry at the fact that they desperately do not want a child but feel trapped into having one and thus paying support than there are men who desperately want to have a baby but the mother insists on aborting.

there are definitely people in both camps and it really sucks either way..... Us men really do get the short end of the stick when it comes to deciding on whether to have a baby or not......... however this is sadly how it has to be. As i said earlier in the topic, until babies can be developed invitro - in which case in theory if the mum wanted an abortion but the dad didnt the baby could be removed and still survive with the dad getting custody and the mum paying maintanence .. but this is not the case and may never be the case... Until that time the mum should get the final say as she is the one carrying the child......................


but like i said if i had to bet £1000 of my own money which camp had more men in i would be quite confident i could get it right.

Yes. But I am not talking about in the situation you mean. I just mean some men, and I can't put the emphasis on some strongly enough, feel so opposed to what a woman wants to do with their own body as they can't have control of the situation.

I'm very pro-choice but my opinion doesn't really matter much when it's not my body that would go through the stress and trauma of either carrying a baby to full term or having an abortion. Neither are trivial matters and I also think that men shouldn't have a deciding vote in how the laws for pregnancy are carried out. We'll never really understand it so our best thing to do would be to shut up and listen to those who it directly effects.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Shocking lack of empathy for raped women.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525836648432513026

 

[throwaway4372]

when do we find out the actual outcome of this?

 

[BananaDunka]

Was reading a thread on this earlier today and had to lol at this, the double standards of American politics is pretty insane on the red side.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

It's funny that the same people who advocate that killing embryos is murder are generally happy with capital punishment. If the latter isn't murder, I don't know what is.

 

[C Kent]

It's funny that the same people who advocate that killing embryos is murder are generally happy with capital punishment. If the latter isn't murder, I don't know what is.

The difference is one is taking an innocents ife, the other isn't.

 

[Harlequin]

The difference is one is taking an innocents ife, the other isn't.

Because there are never any mistakes in the justice system huh

 

[dowie]

*Edit* In fact quite honestly I feel like a topic such as this, Any legislation being made in regards to pregnancy / abortion should *only* be voted on by bona-fide "XX-chromosome's". Who are we (as men) to think we should have ANY say at all on this topic, much less dictate legislation and laws surrounding it?

That’s like something you’d see on an Instagram story being shared by multiple celebs. It’s not like the pro life camp is dominated by men, plenty of women have those views.

It’s fundamentally silly though in terms of how legislation is created in western democracies; there aren’t separate MPs or congress members for men and women.

 

[PlacidCasual]

I don't agree with Pro-Life positions but if you accept life begins at conception placing the foetus on a par with the mother as a right to life issue is not a ridiculous philosophical position. I don't agree with the death sentence because miscarriages of justice happen and I think life without parole is a better punishment. But if you do believe in it it is not at odds with Pro-Life because a judicial process has been followed in the overwhelming majority of abortions I doubt there has been a judicial process.

My personal view is that the consequences of a possible reversal of Roe versus Wade might force these extremely Pro-Life states and politicians to face electoral pain of imposing an unpopular law and the wider consensus might move. Both sides of the US culture war need to calm down, the spread of their ideological positions is ruining political discourse in the West.

Just as long as this nutjobbery doesn't come over here I'll be happy.

 

[Devilman]

That’s like something you’d see on an Instagram story being shared by multiple celebs. It’s not like the pro life camp is dominated by men, plenty of women have those views.

It’s fundamentally silly though in terms of how legislation is created in western democracies; there aren’t separate MPs or congress members for men and women.

You are quite correct, the pro life camp is not just men, there are indeed women there also. However if *only* women were allowed to vote on legislation surrounding abortion, it would indeed have the effect of giving women the power to decide, without interference of people whom are not affected by said legislation.
Very few issues in the world effect only a singular group of individuals with no effect on anyone else, as such this is a pretty unique situation which is unlikely to be replicated in any other such manner.
If the situation were reversed and it was deemed that all males should be forced to undergo reversible vasectomy, how many men would be willing to let women have a say on the matter?

Just because something is "the way it is now" does not mean it is the way it *should* be, that it is *fair* or even humane... Do not forget it is really not that long ago when "legislation" claimed that those of coloured skin were property and women were not worthy of voting so had no say over their lives. Times change, things evolve.

 

[dlockers]

You are quite correct, the pro life camp is not just men, there are indeed women there also. However if *only* women were allowed to vote on legislation surrounding abortion, it would indeed have the effect of giving women the power to decide, without interference of people whom are not affected by said legislation.

A women could be aborting your child, just to play devils advocate

 

[Devilman]

A women could be aborting your child, just to play devils advocate

because the alternative is to force them to go through 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth and suffering with the trauma of both the unwanted physical changes they are undergoing, but also the reality of having to raise a child they did not want? (or at worse, was the result of rape).

Which would seem more humane?

 

[GreatAuk]

The position that only women are affected by abortion legislation only works if you believe that embryos/fetuses/babies have no value.

As such surely it's not that hard to see why people who support limits on abortion due to placing some kind of value on an embryo/fetus/baby would disagree?

It's one of those points which gets wheeled out every time, but it only actually makes sense to the people who are already completely and unreservedly pro-choice.

Maybe there are other arguments for only letting women have a say, but the 'it only affects women's bodies' statement is a consequence of deciding foetuses have no value, and doesn't stand on its own.