Afghanistan - 20 years on

FoxEye said:
If Trump had had 4 years to flick a switch, then that might be valid criticism.

I think what we're seeing right now is how badly things have gone wrong when you try to do this with maximum haste. I.e., treating it like flicking a switch.

Not a Trump defender, but 4 years isn't exactly an eternity given the complexities of the situation. Phased withdrawal is still a withdrawal. And overnight withdrawal has proven to be a disaster.

e: Also it's amazing how child-like partisan politics can be. The US is a great example, with the UK doing a great job also of showing politics in the worst possible light. They are like bickering children most of the time.
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Sorry but I disagree. He could have said in Jan 2017, I want out before the end of my first term. It doesn't take 4 years to get out of a country. Nothing that happened in those 4 years or 4 more years was going to change the situation there, its a country at war, it was a country at war when we went in. It will likely still be a country at war in 10 years time.

He finally made the decision and did a deal with the Taliban in 2020, I think getting out is the right thing to do so I agree with Trump on this, I don't think the way he did it was great but the end result is what matters.

It isn't an overnight withdrawal. Where has this idea come from? Trump started in when he reduced the force to 2.5 troops. Biden extended the date to 31st of August. Everyone knew that was the date. In makes sense that in the final month things are going to speed up dramatically. Did everyone think it was all going to happen on the 31st of August? Now I get that Biden ****** up believing the military when they said the ANA could hold. Hindsight now shows us that was a pipedream. Could it have been done slightly differently? Yes it probably could but I can't see any way that it wouldn't have been slightly chaotic in the last days as people finally realise its actually happening and the Taliban take Kabul and most of the country, like they were always going to.
 
Rroff said:
To be fair what happens with the US administration affects us all, as can be seen with recent events!

I don't however understand the Biden loving some have going on - at best he is acting like your average Tory politician despite some grand words and gestures.
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Its not Biden loving from me. As you say he'd be a Tory here and I've little time for 90% of that party or certainly what that party has now become. Given the alternative though he is the better choice to have in charge, as depressing as that is. In the end he got them out, people can talk about how it could have been oh so different but its a country in chaos, it was like that when we arrived and it will be like that for the foreseeable future. You don't get out of chaos like you are just bringing troops back from being stationed in Germany or South Korea. I'm actually surprised it didn't get more bloody than it did.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
Sorry but I disagree. He could have said in Jan 2017, I want out before the end of my first term. It doesn't take 4 years to get out of a country. Nothing that happened in those 4 years or 4 more years was going to change the situation there, its a country at war, it was a country at war when we went in. It will likely still be a country at war in 10 years time.

He finally made the decision and did a deal with the Taliban in 2020, I think getting out is the right thing to do so I agree with Trump on this, I don't think the way he did it was great but the end result is what matters.

It isn't an overnight withdrawal. Where has this idea come from? Trump started in when he reduced the force to 2.5 troops. Biden extended the date to 31st of August. Everyone knew that was the date. In makes sense that in the final month things are going to speed up dramatically. Did everyone think it was all going to happen on the 31st of August? Now I get that Biden ****** up believing the military when they said the ANA could hold. Hindsight now shows us that was a pipedream. Could it have been done slightly differently? Yes it probably could but I can't see any way that it wouldn't have been slightly chaotic in the last days as people finally realise its actually happening and the Taliban take Kabul and most of the country, like they were always going to.
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Whether or not the Taliban would have taken over, it's beyond ridiculous how much military hardware was left behind.

Estimates vary, but there has been talk of $billions of military equipment abandoned.

Surely you at least take the time you need to evacuate your own gear. Now all we see is the Taliban parading around in US uniforms driving US vehicles, etc.

Not to mention the ****-ups that happened due to extreme haste. Like not having time to destroy evidence, biometric data being found by the Taliban, etc.

Surely Biden had the power to extend the deadline to ensure snafus like this wouldn't happen, or were less likely to happen. He stuck to a deadline that he was fully in control of, at the cost of chaos and shambles, and the considerable loss of prestige on the world stage.

In fact, this withdrawal shambles has made NATO a laughing stock. Nobody is saying we shouldn't have got out, but sticking to this self-imposed deadline has proven to be a catastrophic failure. The US and allies now look weak, fleeing with their tails between their legs, from the Taliban of all people. It looks like a farce, quacks like a farce, because it is a farce.
 
FoxEye said:
Surely Biden had the power to extend the deadline to ensure snafus like this wouldn't happen, or were less likely to happen. He stuck to a deadline that he was fully in control of, at the cost of chaos and shambles, and the considerable loss of prestige on the world stage.

In fact, this withdrawal shambles has made NATO a laughing stock. Nobody is saying we shouldn't have got out, but sticking to this self-imposed deadline has proven to be a catastrophic failure. The US and allies now look weak, fleeing with their tails between their legs, from the Taliban of all people. It looks like a farce, quacks like a farce, because it is a farce.
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The deadline is kind of irrelevant really - a lot of things could have been done infinitely better in the time they did have.

I don't know why so many people use a binary approach to this - Biden, etc. didn't have to go on TV and say "everything is ****** panic now" but they didn't have to go on TV multiple times and reassure everyone things were going to be fine to the lengths they did either. Being somewhat more realistic that the situation was likely to deteriorate rather than iterating in the strongest terms that everything would be fine despite it being a complete lie whether those uttering it knew it or not would only result in people hanging on or assuming there was nothing to worry about.
 
FoxEye said:
If Trump had had 4 years to flick a switch, then that might be valid criticism.

I think what we're seeing right now is how badly things have gone wrong when you try to do this with maximum haste. I.e., treating it like flicking a switch.

Not a Trump defender, but 4 years isn't exactly an eternity given the complexities of the situation. Phased withdrawal is still a withdrawal. And overnight withdrawal has proven to be a disaster.

e: Also it's amazing how child-like partisan politics can be. The US is a great example, with the UK doing a great job also of showing politics in the worst possible light. They are like bickering children most of the time.
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I don't think Boris is half as bad as the US politicians right now. He is pretty vanilla under the wackyness. If Cameron, May and Boris all looked and talked exactly the same you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

He is at least trying to salvage something from this mess while Biden hides away.
 
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FoxEye said:
Whether or not the Taliban would have taken over, it's beyond ridiculous how much military hardware was left behind.

Estimates vary, but there has been talk of $billions of military equipment abandoned.

Surely you at least take the time you need to evacuate your own gear. Now all we see is the Taliban parading around in US uniforms driving US vehicles, etc.

Not to mention the ****-ups that happened due to extreme haste. Like not having time to destroy evidence, biometric data being found by the Taliban, etc.

Surely Biden had the power to extend the deadline to ensure snafus like this wouldn't happen, or were less likely to happen. He stuck to a deadline that he was fully in control of, at the cost of chaos and shambles, and the considerable loss of prestige on the world stage.

In fact, this withdrawal shambles has made NATO a laughing stock. Nobody is saying we shouldn't have got out, but sticking to this self-imposed deadline has proven to be a catastrophic failure. The US and allies now look weak, fleeing with their tails between their legs, from the Taliban of all people. It looks like a farce, quacks like a farce, because it is a farce.
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So hardware owned by the ANA or given to the ANA should have been stolen or destroyed? The ANA collapsing has indeed given military hardware to the Taliban, that is hardly the US fault though is it.

If the US military has left hardware there then time wasn't the reason why. They've known for months that the deadline was the 31st of August, they have clearly made a decision that they didn't want to bring it home. I would agree that that was mistake. Again though time isn't the reason why.

They've had months to destroy data. That is pure and simple a **** up by someone. This date wasn't announced a few weeks ago, they've known for months.

I just don't see what pushing the deadline back again would have achieved. Why would they have not made the same mistakes with data but just in 3 months time. And this wasn't a self imposed deadline, it was an agreed date that was pushed back once already. You can't just keep pushing it back and I 'm not convinced the outcome would be any different even if they had.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
So hardware owned by the ANA or given to the ANA should have been stolen or destroyed? The ANA collapsing has indeed given military hardware to the Taliban, that is hardly the US fault though is it.

If the US military has left hardware there then time wasn't the reason why. They've known for months that the deadline was the 31st of August, they have clearly made a decision that they didn't want to bring it home. I would agree that that was mistake. Again though time isn't the reason why.

They've had months to destroy data. That is pure and simple a **** up by someone. This date wasn't announced a few weeks ago, they've known for months.

I just don't see what pushing the deadline back again would have achieved. Why would they have not made the same mistakes with data but just in 3 months time. And this wasn't a self imposed deadline, it was an agreed date that was pushed back once already. You can't just keep pushing it back and I 'm not convinced the outcome would be any different even if they had.
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The handheld facial recognition devices the US were using to ID their contacts could be wiped litterally just by hitting them a few times, incase the soldier was about to be captured. They didn't even bother to do that.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
I just don't see what pushing the deadline back again would have achieved. Why would they have not made the same mistakes with data but just in 3 months time. And this wasn't a self imposed deadline, it was an agreed date that was pushed back once already. You can't just keep pushing it back and I 'm not convinced the outcome would be any different even of they had.
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Ultimately for any fundamental difference it would mean outlasting a generation of the Talibans so there were less of the old school harder line elements and more of the younger generation - even in more isolated parts that was starting to have effect with Afghans involved in international competitions, etc. coming from even some of the more remote parts. That isn't to say getting out now in itself wasn't the right thing to do.

But ultimately there is almost a whole generation of Afghans whose hopes and dreams will have been crushed and many of them will suffer persecution, even death under the Taliban for the advances they've been part of.

But it was certainly possible for this situation itself to have gone far better and it is only a bit of luck and testament to many of the people involved on the ground that it didn't go spectacularly wrong. US and Afghan leaders going on TV making outlandish statements about how everything was going to be fine definitely didn't help in getting people moving and that doesn't mean the opposite had to happen with Biden going on TV telling them to panic and get out now.
 
Nasher said:
The handheld facial recognition devices the US were using to ID their contacts could be wiped litterally just by hitting them a few times, incase the soldier was about to be captured. They didn't even bother to do that.
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Is it a case of they didn't bother. (The US troops)

Or that they were in the care of the legitimate government and so had no need to be wiped. (Who then let them be captured)
 
FoxEye said:
During his brief lucid moments :p After his midday siesta and before his late afternoon nap?
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It isn't just Biden really - his whole administration seems to have employed a Tory like hands off approach with no one willing to take responsibility for actually directing things (unless forced to by no other option in the face of public outcry) in case it blew up in their hands leaving them responsible. With the same result that we end up deep in the **** before anyone takes charge.

Same kind of reason we ended up with perpetual austerity measures in this country.
 
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