AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[shankly1985]

Should hopefully give us a bump up from V64 whenever it arrives.

Yeah hopefully it will be like me coming from R9 7950 to VEGA that was a massive jump for me. 5700 XT already shows some decent gains over VEGA but it is just a stop gap. Navi 2020 am very sure will be the upgrade us VEGA users have been really waiting for.

 

[Wrinkly]

If your definition of "come-back" is Big Navi to match or beat Big Ampere then your expectations are too high, Ryzen 1000 / 2000 and 3000 never matched or beat the Intel counter parts in gaming, but they still perform very well and are in other ways better, with that AMD have made more than a "come-back", Ryzen self build CPU's are out selling Intel 8 to 1, AMD have turned it around to such an extent in sales Intel are now in a worse position than AMD was with Bulldozer.

AMD don't necessarily have to be "the best", they just have to provide a good all round product at a reasonable price and their sales will pick up.

You have to admit though that this is partly due to games not being optimised for the larger core counts that AMD now offer. I'd imagine this will change with 8c16t consoles arriving soon.

 

[humbug]

You have to admit though that this is partly due to games not being optimised for the larger core counts that AMD now offer. I'd imagine this will change with 8c16t consoles arriving soon.

You're right. Its more complex than that tho.... It actually does really well with very low threaded games, 1, 2 or 3 threads, it does quite well in games that use a lot of threads.

Its that bit in-between where it doesn't do 'as' well, where it doesn't use all the threads but is also more than a couple of threads.

The reason being, unlike Zen + Zen 2 over-rides the Windows Scheduler and keeps the load inside a single CCX if the thread load is low enough to do that, otherwise you end up out side of the CCX and thats where the Inter-core latency plays its part.

Very low threaded game, the very best example...



High threaded game,



Something weirdly in-between, the worst example...

 

[humbug]

Very High Quality vs Low Quality on that one ^^^ its probably using more threads with these much higher IQ settings....

Games do use more threads when you turn the IQ up, its why i don't like reviewers using low IQ setting when reviewing CPU gaming performance, it skews the performance toward lower threaded CPU's and that just wouldn't be true IRL.

 

[Grim5]

You have to admit though that this is partly due to games not being optimised for the larger core counts that AMD now offer. I'd imagine this will change with 8c16t consoles arriving soon.

yeah hopefully. console os works a little different in that some cores/threads are also reserved for the OS. Windows doesn't work this way.
so on consoles the actual number of cores/threads available to the game is always less than the total number. iirc for the current consoles like the ps4, games only have access to 5 or 6 out of the 8 cores.

since zen 2 cores are so good, hopefully the OS only needs 1 core/2 hreads and the other 14 threads are for the games

 

[Grim5]

Something weirdly in-between, the worst example...

Far Cry 5 engine is currently limited to 6 cores/6 threads only and like fast clock speed

 

[EastCoastHandle]

In order to avoid confusion, AMD is dropping the ‘+’ from its roadmaps. In speaking with AMD, the company confirmed that its next generations of 7nm products are likely to use process enhancements and the best high-performance libraries for the target market, however it is not explicity stating whether this would be N7P or N7+, just that it will be ‘better’ than the base N7 used in its first 7nm line.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that AMD isn’t going to be using EUV in the future – we were told it will be on a case by case basis, and at this time they wanted to clarify that AMD is not making any specific clarifications of which version of 7nm from TSMC it plans to use. More will be detailed at future events.
....
TSMC has three high-level versions of its 7nm process:

• N7, which is the basic initial version using ‘DUV’ only tools (so no EUV),
• N7P, which is the second generation version of N7 which is also only DUV
• N7+, which is an EUV version of N7 for a number of layers in the metal stack

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified

I'm guess that they are using both N7P and N7+. But for what gpu's hasn't been made clear yet.



From Scott Herkelman @ AMD:

There will be no blower reference fans for gamers on next gen. So you are correct

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/commen...sed/fjlm281?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Our AIBs may choose to do a “blower” design on any of the next gen GPUs, however, the majority of feedback we received from the community at the launch of 5700 XT on AMD reference designs has guided us towards dual/tri-axial designs. I’m excited for you all to see them when the time is right!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/commen...sed/fjlwde9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Actually, we could use our fans help. One of the problems of past launches is the rumor milling of performance claims that seem to become mainstream. And since we are a publicly held company we cannot and do not comment on rumors of OMGBBQSAUCE next gen Radeon will cure make world peace. Unless you hear it from us or a respected reviewer directly, please just say no.

The only official communication from us are the slides from yesterday's financial analyst day showing our roadmap through 2022, expected 50% perf/watt generational improvement from navi 1 to Navi 2, Navi 2 will include RTRT, VRS and more and will launch in 2020. Then, there is my commitment to the community to not have blower fans at launch for our reference designs.

Our goal since the launch of RDNA and 5000 series is to be transparent and straightforward with any performance claims, validated by press. We understand this hasn't always been how the community has viewed RTG in the past, and that is why we are working hard to change the over-hyped past.

<edited because curing world peace is weird>

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/commen...sed/fjoe4m3?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

 

[LePhuronn]

Very much doubt that tbh I think these will release before the consoles. I going with August.

Cant see it. Consoles rocking the "RDNA2 isnt even available on PC hardware". Theyll bang this drum to make sales, I'm sure there would even be a handshake in there somewhere. You'll see it release after console I'm almost certain of that.

I've said it before and I'll throw it out there again: Navi Refresh and Big Navi are a fixed RDNA 1. RDNA 2 products for PC will not be out before the consoles, because doing so is going to totally screw up marketing, drum-thumping and perceptions for one, if not all 3 RDNA 2 players.

I can genuinely see both MS and Sony's marketing drive having a healthy dose of "we're more powerful and cheaper than gaming PCs" with all the same fancy kit that thousand-dollar PC cards have. It would completely steal MS and Sony's thunder (and open up litigation too maybe) if AMD dropped RNDA 2 cards that outperform the consoles before the consoles even land. By the same token, if AMD released RDNA 2 cards comparable or under the performance of the consoles, they're just opening themselves up to massive negative mindshare because "AMD can't even beat a console" and similar tripe.

So no, the big-ass RDNA 2 cards with all the ray tracing and fancies are coming after the consoles. CES 2021 I reckon, giving MS and Sony a good couple of sales months. Also remember that AMD said they're only offering ray tracing when they can do so to an acceptable standard across the entire product stack.

If RDNA 1's issues can be fixed so it scales up to the 80 CU monsters as originally leaked, then that's plenty enough to take the performance crown away from Turing for 3 months, because don't forget RDNA 2 is tipped to be the Ampere competitor, not Turing. And that's what I think they've done: Navi had power issues moving past 40 CUs, so the entire top half of the stack was cancelled, the RX 680 had the **** clocked off it and renamed the 5700 XT and out it's pushed as a stop gap. All the while, RDNA 1 is getting the kinks worked out and fixed. 1 year later it's sorted, so the new and revised RDNA 1 lands, with 5x50 (XT) refreshes with a bump to clocks (because the lower board power allows for it), and new 5850, 5850 XT and 5950 XT products occupying the 56, 64 and 80 CU brackets to batter top Turing.

And if you don't think that level of performance is possible, just remember (again) that the 5700 XT was supposed to be a RX 680. If the lowly RX series beats the RTX 2070 (because it does), what would the rest of the stack done?

It's not like this is unusual either. The RX 480 came out and there was the big ding dong about it drawing too much power from the PCIe slot. Less than a year later we get the RX 500 series with all those power issues resolved.

 

[humbug]

I've said it before and I'll throw it out there again: Navi Refresh and Big Navi are a fixed RDNA 1. RDNA 2 products for PC will not be out before the consoles, because doing so is going to totally screw up marketing, drum-thumping and perceptions for one, if not all 3 RDNA 2 players.

I can genuinely see both MS and Sony's marketing drive having a healthy dose of "we're more powerful and cheaper than gaming PCs" with all the same fancy kit that thousand-dollar PC cards have. It would completely steal MS and Sony's thunder (and open up litigation too maybe) if AMD dropped RNDA 2 cards that outperform the consoles before the consoles even land. By the same token, if AMD released RDNA 2 cards comparable or under the performance of the consoles, they're just opening themselves up to massive negative mindshare because "AMD can't even beat a console" and similar tripe.

So no, the big-ass RDNA 2 cards with all the ray tracing and fancies are coming after the consoles. CES 2021 I reckon, giving MS and Sony a good couple of sales months. Also remember that AMD said they're only offering ray tracing when they can do so to an acceptable standard across the entire product stack.

If RDNA 1's issues can be fixed so it scales up to the 80 CU monsters as originally leaked, then that's plenty enough to take the performance crown away from Turing for 3 months, because don't forget RDNA 2 is tipped to be the Ampere competitor, not Turing. And that's what I think they've done: Navi had power issues moving past 40 CUs, so the entire top half of the stack was cancelled, the RX 680 had the **** clocked off it and renamed the 5700 XT and out it's pushed as a stop gap. All the while, RDNA 1 is getting the kinks worked out and fixed. 1 year later it's sorted, so the new and revised RDNA 1 lands, with 5x50 (XT) refreshes with a bump to clocks (because the lower board power allows for it), and new 5850, 5850 XT and 5950 XT products occupying the 56, 64 and 80 CU brackets to batter top Turing.

And if you don't think that level of performance is possible, just remember (again) that the 5700 XT was supposed to be a RX 680. If the lowly RX series beats the RTX 2070 (because it does), what would the rest of the stack done?

It's not like this is unusual either. The RX 480 came out and there was the big ding dong about it drawing too much power from the PCIe slot. Less than a year later we get the RX 500 series with all those power issues resolved.

CES 2021 is too late, that's not just giving Nvidia a head start, but delaying beyond that and getting near to being a generation behind again.

AMD can't afford to just keep arbitrarily "putting it off for another year" they need to release as soon as its ready, not keep deliberately putting yourself behind, that's madness... who does that in the tech industry and survives?

 

[TonyTurbo78]

I've said it before and I'll throw it out there again: Navi Refresh and Big Navi are a fixed RDNA 1. RDNA 2 products for PC will not be out before the consoles, because doing so is going to totally screw up marketing, drum-thumping and perceptions for one, if not all 3 RDNA 2 players.

I can genuinely see both MS and Sony's marketing drive having a healthy dose of "we're more powerful and cheaper than gaming PCs" with all the same fancy kit that thousand-dollar PC cards have. It would completely steal MS and Sony's thunder (and open up litigation too maybe) if AMD dropped RNDA 2 cards that outperform the consoles before the consoles even land. By the same token, if AMD released RDNA 2 cards comparable or under the performance of the consoles, they're just opening themselves up to massive negative mindshare because "AMD can't even beat a console" and similar tripe.

So no, the big-ass RDNA 2 cards with all the ray tracing and fancies are coming after the consoles. CES 2021 I reckon, giving MS and Sony a good couple of sales months. Also remember that AMD said they're only offering ray tracing when they can do so to an acceptable standard across the entire product stack.

If RDNA 1's issues can be fixed so it scales up to the 80 CU monsters as originally leaked, then that's plenty enough to take the performance crown away from Turing for 3 months, because don't forget RDNA 2 is tipped to be the Ampere competitor, not Turing. And that's what I think they've done: Navi had power issues moving past 40 CUs, so the entire top half of the stack was cancelled, the RX 680 had the **** clocked off it and renamed the 5700 XT and out it's pushed as a stop gap. All the while, RDNA 1 is getting the kinks worked out and fixed. 1 year later it's sorted, so the new and revised RDNA 1 lands, with 5x50 (XT) refreshes with a bump to clocks (because the lower board power allows for it), and new 5850, 5850 XT and 5950 XT products occupying the 56, 64 and 80 CU brackets to batter top Turing.

And if you don't think that level of performance is possible, just remember (again) that the 5700 XT was supposed to be a RX 680. If the lowly RX series beats the RTX 2070 (because it does), what would the rest of the stack done?

It's not like this is unusual either. The RX 480 came out and there was the big ding dong about it drawing too much power from the PCIe slot. Less than a year later we get the RX 500 series with all those power issues resolved.

Did you accidentally quote me, that's exactly what I said, I just chose to keep it brief

 

[LePhuronn]

Did you accidentally quote me, that's exactly what I said, I just chose to keep it brief

lol, I actually forgot to put in "I'm leaning towards TonyTurbo's stance"

 

[LePhuronn]

CES 2021 is too late, that's not just giving Nvidia a head start, but delaying beyond that and getting near to being a generation behind again.

AMD can't afford to just keep arbitrarily "putting it off for another year" they need to release as soon as its ready, not keep deliberately putting yourself behind, that's madness... who does that in the tech industry and survives?

Long game, humbug, long game. And it's not arbitrary nor deliberate. Nor is it giving Nvidia a head start. You're also assuming Nvidia release gaming Ampere middle of this year. I highly doubt that.

Ampere may have 3 months or so before RDNA 2 lands, but RDNA 2 is pipped to be the Ampere competitor, not Turing, as I said. So suddenly AMD are trading blows and only being 3 months behind, rather than years behind. And then RDNA 3 is on the road map for 2022, do you really think Nvidia can turn Hopper around in a year? It's entirely possible a 2022 release for AMD actually puts them ahead of Nvidia, and it's Hopper that is playing catch up whilst AMD continue to innovate; Nvidia are suddenly in the Intel position of playing catch-up (although they'll never be as far behind).

 

[FoxEye]

Why would nV be behind at any point?

They have far greater R&D budgets than AMD's GPU division, or so we keep hearing.

The idea that AMD are going to leapfrog nV seems very optimistic, given that nV aren't really in an Intel-like position.

 

[b00merang69]

It is called delusions and like every release onboard the hype train when it does not deliver it will be "ah well next time" for the umpteenth time

 

[Rroff]

It is called delusions and like every release onboard the hype train when it does not deliver it will be "ah well next time" for the umpteenth time

Eventually they will get it right just that once... it is funny seeing the same old tired hype trotted out generation after generation without the smallest sense of irony.

 

[BigBANGtheory]

Zen3 with Big Navi could be a very strong PC gaming combo, that could well prompt my first major overhaul in a number of years. I'd even consider a prebuilt system over DIY which I've not done sine the 90's

 

[LePhuronn]

It is called delusions and like every release onboard the hype train when it does not deliver it will be "ah well next time" for the umpteenth time

No, it's called discussion. If you think the concept that AMD might actually get a leg up on their GPU competition is "delusion" then you might want to toddle along and post elsewhere (and conveniently ignore the CPU landscape since 2017).

Besides, pray tell what do you propose the response to be? RDNA 2 doesn't deliver so we should all go to AMD's HQ with pitchforks, crying blood demanding Lisa Su's head because "we don't get a gud GPU and Nvidia charge lots money *cryface* "? Grow up man, "ah well next time" is entirely the correct response for something as meaningless as a ******* gaming card. If AMD don't deliver for the "umpteenth time" then don't buy one, simple as.

 

[LePhuronn]

Why would nV be behind at any point?

They have far greater R&D budgets than AMD's GPU division, or so we keep hearing.

The idea that AMD are going to leapfrog nV seems very optimistic, given that nV aren't really in an Intel-like position.

So you don't think the notion of RDNA 3 being out for a full year before Hopper is Nvidia being "behind"? It took AMD years to get close to Nvidia's performance because AMD are "behind", but Nvidia taking a rear to catch up and surpass RDNA 3 isn't them being "behind".

It's a purely theoretical stance, but such is the nature of discussion. If this year's Big Navi and Navi refresh do end up being a fixed RDNA 1, with RDNA 2 coming in the New Year, there is an outside chance that RDNA 3 could be out before Hopper, which means AMD get the jump and Nvidia are behind.

 

[b00merang69]

@ LePhuronn: That is my opinion based on the comments here every new AMD release and the hype train rolls out, I never said AMD will never get it right as they have with their CPU memory compatibility aside.

P.S Do not tell me or anyone else to toddle along and post elsewhere, this a discussion after all, touché...

You sure do seem an angry person getting wound up over others opinions on PC hardware.

 

[FoxEye]

So you don't think the notion of RDNA 3 being out for a full year before Hopper is Nvidia being "behind"? It took AMD years to get close to Nvidia's performance because AMD are "behind", but Nvidia taking a rear to catch up and surpass RDNA 3 isn't them being "behind".

It's a purely theoretical stance, but such is the nature of discussion. If this year's Big Navi and Navi refresh do end up being a fixed RDNA 1, with RDNA 2 coming in the New Year, there is an outside chance that RDNA 3 could be out before Hopper, which means AMD get the jump and Nvidia are behind.

Without knowing how any of those future cards perform, the "discussion" is meaningless.

AMD can release 500 cards a month if they like. If none of them are as good as their nV counterparts at any single point in time, then how is nV behind? When you release and how often means nothing on its own.

You're making *lots* of assumptions. That AMD will release when you think; that nV will release when you think; that the AMD card will be superior to the nV card.

And there is literally no evidence for this. It's not so much a discussion as a battle cry to "Believe in AMD! Belieeeeeeve!"

Nah, I'll pass on the tea leaf readings, thanks.