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AMD Zen 5 rumours

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Intel does have access to more advanced packaging technologies than AMD which is helpful.
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Yes, Intel's foundry may have become a joke but they have invested very heavily in packaging. Well suited to mix and match of internal and external foundries?

And it is far more advanced than what AMD use (well in the consumer space - MI300 is a no packaging expense spared type thing).

Still I feel it is my duty for the next few years to often repeat the words glue, superglue in relation to Intel's products because Intel PR dug themselves into that corner!
 
KompuKare said:
Yes, Intel's foundry may have become a joke but they have invested very heavily in packaging. Well suited to mix and match of internal and external foundries?

And it is far more advanced than what AMD use (well in the consumer space - MI300 is a no packaging expense spared type thing).

Still I feel it is my duty for the next few years to often repeat the words glue, superglue in relation to Intel's products because Intel PR dug themselves into that corner!
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AMD=Glue.
Intel=Super Glue.
 
Alexrose1uk said:
He is right in that we have a weaker CCD, but I think the rest of his quote is pretty sensationalist; but the guy is borderline a troll with a pretty bad attitude so is that not expected?
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I'd take the opinion of some random guy who's in the nip in a town centre, screaming incoherently at a pencil while pleasuring himself, over the opinion of that framechasers tool. He's not even borderline its full on crayon eating troll mode.
 
G J said:
I take Frame Chaser's content and views if it's negative or positive as it is as the same can be attributed to the posters here.
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Just quoting myself again as he keeps getting mentioned and again he's no different to some of you here, its just some of you have to hide it better to not get banned/moderated.

I'm getting worried why this guy manages to tilt some of you so to the point some need to spew such venom.
 
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RavenXXX2 said:
What do you guys make of this?

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Not surprised at all,as AMD increasingly is raising prices and finding creative ways to increase margins. It's clear they are increasingly just sending the best chiplets to server and desktop users are getting runt silicon which is leaky. The 9700X and 9600X are also poor silicon too IMHO.

This is a consequence of AMD getting more and more server success.

There is zero reason for the 9950X to need to do this, when the 7950X,5950X or 3950X didn't need to. It shows you how poor one of the chiplets must be,if they need to use an X3D driver.

Just look at the other CPUs:
1.)The 9700X and 9600X are clearly the 9700 and 9600 but with a stealth price increase.
2.)By renaming the CPUs, they could also remove the stock coolers and force comparisons to the overvolted 7700X and 7600X.
3.)Spin that Zen5 desktop was much more efficient and many reviewers got fooled.
4.)When compared to the 7700 and 7600 there were no efficency gains of note and in some cases they were less efficient.

AMD are also rebadging A620 to B840,so they can jack the price up of the chipsets. Follows the same stuff they did with RDNA3.

This is the same stuff they did once they smelt success with the Athlon 64 back in the day, where they increased prices and started segmenting stuff.

Their marketing has lied about RDNA3 performance and now Zen5 performance.

Then launch the CPUs and the hardware and software infrastructure is half finished.

This whole launch tells me, they are probably worried about Arrow Lake so to make a quick buck pushed Zen5 out early.

If someone wants Zen5, best to wait until next year, when the X3D variants and the B850 are out. By then there will be new AGESA out and the software side will be fixed. Also silicon quality should improve.

Not sure why people keep giving them the benefit of the doubt.
 
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The price/performance of Zen 5 was so underwhelming that I jumped on a 7800 X3D last week in a very good sale price.

Anyone who thinks now that AMD have significant market share, they won’t do exactly what Nvidia and Intel do to shaft consumers… are lying to themselves.

Edit: The performance of the 9700X is perfectly good, just the price was poor. It was actually 10% more expensive than the 7800X3D I ended up buying instead.
 
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CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
There is zero reason for the 9950X to need to do this, when the 7950X,5950X or 3950X didn't need to. It shows you how poor one of the chiplets must be,if they need to use an X3D driver.
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They have always had a strong CCD and a weaker CCD on dual CCD chips.

Lightly threaded workloads default to not only the better CCD but also the better core on the CCD.

Multithreaded loads load all cores below the max boost clock of any of the cores due to power limits.
 
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Minstadave said:
They have always had a strong CCD and a weaker CCD on dual CCD chips.

Lightly threaded workloads default to not only the better CCD but also the better core on the CCD.

Multithreaded loads load all cores below the max boost clock of any of the cores due to power limits.
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I know that(I have been on Ryzen since 2018) but this time the silicon variance between the chiplets is much higher.

Remember with Zen2, the Ryzen 9 5950X was a 105w TDP CPU for two chiplets. The best single chiplet model was at 65W. Each of those chiplets had the best clockspeeds and voltages of all of the range.

Fast forward to now. The 7950X/9950X are 170W over two chiplets, with the best single chiplet model at 65W. It's clearly worse quality chiplets relative to the Zen3 era.
This is also compounded by the X3D variants where the X3D chiplet probably now takes the best set of chiplets.

People need to appreciate that the chiplet strategy is a double edged sword. AMD only has so much capacity and as server sales increase, the quantity and quality of chiplets to desktop will get worse and worse, especially with launch silicon.
 
RavenXXX2 said:
videocardz.com

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X drops to $623, 9900X now $449 in the US, with prices slashed up to 12% in Germany - VideoCardz.com

Ryzen 9000 gets first price cuts Not official AMD price cuts, but retailer price cuts. The AMD Ryzen 9000 series has arrived, with at least four SKUs already announced and launched. However, a few things need to be finalized before the full transition to the new platform can be declared...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

Sales must be terrible.
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Not surprising at all.If AMD wants to sell premium priced products,they need to make sure the experience is premium. If the software isn't ready then launch it when it is.

ICDP said:
The price/performance of Zen 5 was so underwhelming that I jumped on a 7800 X3D last week in a very good sale price.

Anyone who thinks now that AMD have significant market share, they won’t do exactly what Nvidia and Intel do to shaft consumers… are lying to themselves.

Edit: The performance of the 9700X is perfectly good, just the price was poor. It was actually 10% more expensive than the 7800X3D I ended up buying instead.
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The issue is the generational improvements are not great. Even the much vaunted Windows update also helps Zen4:

The reality AMD has gotten a tad greedy - look what happened with RDNA3? The same Del Boy level tactics,where they try a fast one and they fall flat on their face predictably and are forced to reduce prices. But all the poor launch reviews remain and they end up with a glut of stock which needs to be discounted even more.

Six cores have now become the new quad cores for AMD,and this is while Intel is adding E cores to their six core CPUs,which means they are starting to win in multi-threaded benchmarks. If Arrowlake has good single core improvements,it means AMD will be in the same scenario Intel was when Ryzen was launched.

Instead of lying in their PR slides and expecting reviewers and enthusiasts to not notice,they should have priced and positioned these better. The range should have been as follows:
1.)Ryzen 5 9600X should have been a Ryzen 3 9500X for £200 to £225
2.)Ryzen 7 9700X should have been a Ryzen 5 9600X for £250 to £280
3.)Ryzen 9 9900X should have been a Ryzen 7 9800X for £350 to £400
4.)Ryzen 9 9950X should have been a Ryzen 9 9900X for £475 to £525

Provide stock coolers for the first two models. Not the rubbish Wraith Stealth,but one of the better ones.

That way AMD could say that core counts have increased at each level,as has single core performance.

Also on the chipset level,instead of rebranding A620 to B840,they should have made it an A820 with more connectivity.

AMD are using a modified 5NM process for these CPUs - the same used by Nvidia. With the Zen5 chiplets being the same size as Zen4,I doubt costs are much higher for them.

Instead,AMD already feel they have won against Intel and don't need to bother. But they did the same when Core and Core 2 was launched. Pat Gelsinger was at Intel when they tried their dodgy tactics last time.

He is fully aware AMD being on better nodes is helping them,and conveniently Intel has bought a lot of TSMC capacity which denies AMD that capacity.

PS: I also bought a Ryzen 7 7800X3D on offer.

I should have waited for the Arrowlake launch and Ryzen 7 9800X3D launch,but I did the same. I already pushed back my upgrade and I CBA waiting another 4~6 months for the dust to settle.
 
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Zen 6 is finally meant to split server and desktop which makes sense.

We'll see what Strix Halo is like but a monolith which doesn't cut back on cache and isn't a mobile-first design that has limited IO (mostly PCIe slots) and switches down too quickly, well such a monolith might actually be better for 95% of desktop users. The other 5% really are looking for HEDT - and both Intel and AMD have mostly stopped serving that market as, for instance, Threadripper is just to expensive.

Still, the end of HEDT does mean the end of segmentation - yet both the AMD Socket 754 and Socket 939 split in the Athlon era and the similar split with Intel LGA1156 and LGA1366 were not purely about segmentation but also about cost especially in the Athlon era where OEMs were reluctant to sell triple channel AMD systems.

I still suspect that when Zen 5 was changed from being in 3nm that AMD's penny pinching probably threw a lot of stuff into "do this with Zen6" bucket and while penny pinching and deciding what to keep in Zen 5 (and remember 22 months behind Zen 4 is a really really slow cadence) they leaned on the parts more important for server. Hence all the "Zen 5 is not zen" comments as it is unbalanced with the backend being way behind the new frontend. What that means for the 3D parts is unknown ATM but it may be that the larger 3D cache will balance Zen 5 in a way previous 3D variants did not. Latest rumours are that Zen 5 3D has been delayed to January though.
 
@KompuKare But none of that explains the excessive segmentation and stagnation with this launch. Or the misleading marketing.Zen5 is also using a modified 5NM node and the chiplets are the same size as Zen4. The chipsets are re-using the same Promontory 21 chipset.

Yet AMD not only rebranded their products upwards again,they removed the stock coolers and are rebranding A620 to A840. We all know that means a stealth price increase for B850 to probably B650E pricing.

Plus,yet again AMD are limiting CPUs with more than 8 cores to well over £300 at launch yet again. Core counts are stagnating too.

Ever since Zen3 and when they rebranded the Ryzen 5 5600 to a near £300 Ryzen 5 5600X,or the RX7800XT/RX7800 to an RX7900XT they have been increasing opportunistic in pricing and rebranding products.

They are basically copying the same things Intel and Nvidia have done in the past with segmentation and rebranding. But unlike them,don't get criticised anywhere as much.

Yet this strategy does not work. Zen4 sales was the same opportunistic pricing,which lead to low sales. Only when they re-released the range and reduced pricing of the CPUs and motherboards,did sales pick up. The same with their graphics cards.

But the problem is they are fighting two Juggernauts in Intel and Nvidia. Intel had 7 years of AMD beating it several times,but they managed to push back. Intel still outsells AMD even now.

Instead of making Intel's situation harder for them,they seem to be(like with Nvidia) making their competitor's lives easier. With the current Intel woes,they are not capitalising on them,but instead of giving Intel easier launch day reviews for Arrowlake.

With RDNA3,they overpriced their graphics cards and delayed launches which helped Nvidia more than it helped AMD.

In both situations the competition gave them open goals,yet AMD scored own goals instead.

It makes me wonder at times. This can't be all down to complacency or marketing incompetence.
 
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It's a launch with the notorious AMD launch masterplan - strive to get poor reviews. Over price at launch and get poor reviews and sales. Then cut prices sometimes a lot a while later.

Ironically this is now that the AM5 boards are not as overpriced* and DDR5 no longer has much of a premium - which were the main reason IMO why Zen 4 did not sell well for at least its first year.

* but still higher than AM4. AM5 and LGA1700 are both flawed platforms in terms of prices:
  1. Want PCIe 5 for NVMe but not GPU? AM5 is far cheaper.
  2. Want PCIe 5 for GPU but not NVMe? LGA1700 is far cheaper.
  3. Want PCIe 5.0 for both? Pay up and pay up - cheapest with both for LGA1700 and AM5 I could quickly find was ASRock Riptide Wifi which is £212 for Z790 and £221. Guess LGA1770 gets Z790 vs B550E. There is also an ASRock B650 Steel Legend which is listed as PCI 5.0 x16 but I though only B550E supported that? That is "only" £190.
The good news: price cuts should come fast and by the time Zen 5 is worth buying desktop might be in the revision/stepping which Turin uses - unsure what that brings but newer should be better, right?

See what ARL brings - for my work laptop hybrid has been a disaster (but then nobody in IT ever got fired for buying Intel, right) - but for a desktop it might be okay. Will watch if there any latency issues with tiles - aka Intel superglue™ chiplets.

Spare a though for the poor OS scheduler writers though: never mind having to cope with ARM - Qualcomm were merely the first with a big ARM Windows push - but now there is Intel P and E in tons of variants, there is Zen plus Zen 4C/5C, APUs etc.
 
RavenXXX2 said:
videocardz.com

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X drops to $623, 9900X now $449 in the US, with prices slashed up to 12% in Germany - VideoCardz.com

Ryzen 9000 gets first price cuts Not official AMD price cuts, but retailer price cuts. The AMD Ryzen 9000 series has arrived, with at least four SKUs already announced and launched. However, a few things need to be finalized before the full transition to the new platform can be declared...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

Sales must be terrible.
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Imagine paying full price at launch and then 1 week later the price cuts start

10% price cut so soon is crazy
 
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Grim5 said:
Imagine paying full price at launch and then 1 week later the price cuts start

10% price cut so soon is crazy
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Is it though? Feels like I read that after every AMD premiere of CPU and GPU architecture for a long time now... They always seem to overprice their new products and market quickly corrects them within few weeks usually.
 
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