Ashes thread - England vs Australia * SPOILERS *

Rich_L · 19 Dec 2006 at 13:31

Couple of bits of truth in that post but largely rubbish..especially about the 2005 series being a fluke, what a load of tosh.

Although we lost quite heavily, each test we've had individual performances from different players which show the quality of the side, it's just a shame that they never seemed to all fire at once, which is what we saw in the 2005 series. Also Australia have strengthened their team, Stuart Clark is far, far better than Gillespie, Hussey for Katich and suchlike.

Quite looking forward to the next couple of tests regardless of the results, if only to give the younger players more experience at playing the Aussies. Still maintain that England have an excellent spread of classy players who on their day can beat anyone in the world.

Bring on the next Test!

Uhtred · 19 Dec 2006 at 13:40

I must agree with the above. 2005 wasn't a fluke, we do have a very very good potential team, it's young, needs more experience and consistency from our batting and more penetration from our bowling.

This year was always going to be tough with the thirst for revenge, being away from home and problems with injuries. I expect we'll see a much better england in the next couple of tests and I’m already looking forward to the next ashes, I predict an England win

Chimpdaddy · 19 Dec 2006 at 14:40

One major difference between this year and last year is our consistency. England simply lacked consistency. In order to beat Australia, you need many sessions of good batting and bowling. It is not enough to produce 1 or 2 good sessions, and then drop your game. The Aussies love that, and thrive on that. The test in Adelaide is an excellent example. England just seem to lose concentration, and Australia pounced on it.

Last year, with the reverse swing, the bowling tactics we had to each batter, the great captaincy, and our terrific batting (minimal English collapses) all contributed to good sessions and put heavy pressure on the Aussies. I have yet to see anything that even resembles that kind of consistency.

I think we are all in agreement that Duncan Fletcher should retire. What was he thinking sending in Giles instead of Monty? Monty puts his whole heart into the game and wants to be apart of every second. Not to mention he is a far better bowler than Giles. I think Flintoff should not be captain. He already has got enough on his plate being an allrounder. And what about Jones? Well it is time to cut out losses, admit the boy is not good enough, and bring in a new face.

Overall, poor prepartion, coaching, selection and performance has cost us the Ashes.

Oh yeah, the Aussies didn't play so bad either!

dirtydog · 19 Dec 2006 at 16:31

Rich_L said:
Couple of bits of truth in that post but largely rubbish..especially about the 2005 series being a fluke, what a load of tosh.

We were very lucky in 2005 and it doesn't do the England team any good to pretend otherwise. Such self-deception will make us lose future series against Australia. We had good luck, Australia had lots of bad luck and as a result we scraped a series win - with a weaker team than has lost series to Australia in the past. That is the unpalatable truth I'm sorry to say.

I don't know if you have only recently started following cricket or if you are too young to know, but England have always had individuals who have performed superbly against Australia and have had strong players before. The current team is most certainly no stronger than the teams led by Hussain or Atherton.

Raymond Lin · 19 Dec 2006 at 17:44

Zap said:
I must agree with the above. 2005 wasn't a fluke.

They haven't won it since Botham, lost it this time, and chances are they are going to lose everyone for another 2 decades. I say it was a fluke, but statistically they were bound to win one sooner or later. A broken clock is right twice a day.

Uhtred · 19 Dec 2006 at 18:07

Raymond Lin said:
They haven't won it since Botham, lost it this time, and chances are they are going to lose everyone for another 2 decades. I say it was a fluke, but statistically they were bound to win one sooner or later. A broken clock is right twice a day.

A very poor analogy to say the least. We have a lot of very good up and coming players, when they all perform we have an awesome team and they will get better.

What really annoys me about this country is a complete lack of faith in our players and blind ignorance to the fact that we actually have a very good team. If you look at the Australians when they lost it last year, they still had confidence in their players and captain and it just made them more determined to win it back.

Raymond Lin · 19 Dec 2006 at 18:31

Zap said:
What really annoys me about this country is a complete lack of faith in our players and blind ignorance to the fact that we actually have a very good team. If you look at the Australians when they lost it last year, they still had confidence in their players and captain and it just made them more determined to win it back.

That's due to the total lack of any proof in living memory that they can win it and then hold it a few times. In my life time I've only known them winning it twice, and the first time that happened Diana was still married to Charles.

Uhtred · 19 Dec 2006 at 19:16

Raymond Lin said:
That's due to the total lack of any proof in living memory that they can win it and then hold it a few times. In my life time I've only known them winning it twice, and the first time that happened Diana was still married to Charles.

so what?

Different players, anything can happen.

Big Kev · 19 Dec 2006 at 19:49

Zap said:
What really annoys me about this country is a complete lack of faith in our players and blind ignorance to the fact that we actually have a very good team. If you look at the Australians when they lost it last year, they still had confidence in their players and captain and it just made them more determined to win it back.

I totally agree, as I stated earlier, I think that if we had a full strength team out, we'd beat them and all of our team will be in contention for places when the Ashes are next played, unlike a lot of the Aussie team.

People also seem to forget that this is the best Aussie team of all time and possibly the best cricket team of all time and unless we were at full strength, we were always bound to suffer.

e36Adz · 19 Dec 2006 at 20:24

Big Kev said:
People also seem to forget that this is the best Aussie team of all time and possibly the best cricket team of all time...

I think the only ones who are forgetting that, are the ones who think England would have won with their full strength team, because in all honesty I don't think they would have stood a chance then either.

Australia are without a doubt the best team in the world, they have shown everyone why, time and time again. I agree with most of what dirtydog said, I don't think this England side is as good as some people are making out. I remember Australia having a lot of bad luck/decisions go against them in the 2005 ashes, and England did only marginally win it in the end. So what if afew players get injured and can't play this time round, that doesn't equate to getting totally demolished. But thats exactly whats happened.

Some people are saying its been patchy cricket from England with abit of a performance here and abit there, that doesn't really mean anything. These are professional cricketers we are talking about, obviously if they get afew attempts they are bound to do something. Hell if Bangladesh played Australia in 5 test matches I guarentee one bowler will shine for Bangladesh in one of the innings in one of the tests. Actually I even recall Bangladesh beating Australia not too long ago in a ODI match :eek:

Everyone still knows it was a fluke.

The manner in which England have been beaten though really does make you wonder about last year.

Big Kev · 19 Dec 2006 at 21:42

e36Adz said:
I think the only ones who are forgetting that, are the ones who think England would have won with their full strength team, because in all honesty I don't think they would have stood a chance then either.

The manner in which England have been beaten though really does make you wonder about last year.

An in form Pietersen, Flintoff and Harmison are as good as there is on the planet, Jones and Hoggy swinging the ball, Panesar putting pressure with his spin and you have a really awesome bowling line up, at least as good as the Aussies in my book. Swinging the ball was crucial and we were far more adept at that than them.

Strauss, Cook, Trescothick, Bell and even Collingwood are capable of big scores, with the only dodgy point being our wicketkeeper.

As for the 2005 win, there were one or two ropey decisions, but that's no excuse over a whole series and I think our habit of slating our teams is now rearing it's ugly head again and embarrassingly, something I've done myself over the years.

scott.holmes · 19 Dec 2006 at 21:46

Big Kev said:
An in form Pietersen, Flintoff and Harmison are as good as there is on the planet, Jones and Hoggy swinging the ball, Panesar putting pressure with his spin and you have a really awesome bowling line up, at least as good as the Aussies in my book. Swinging the ball was crucial and we were far more adept at that than them.

Strauss, Cook, Trescothick, Bell and even Collingwood are capable of big scores, with the only dodgy point being our wicketkeeper.

As for the 2005 win, there were one or two ropey decisions, but that's no excuse over a whole series and I think our habit of slating our teams is now rearing it's ugly head again and embarrassingly, something I've done myself over the years.

Excellent remarks that, id agree 100% with that. And you mention Simon Jones, who is an awesome bowler and we did miss his this series :/

normanthefarmer · 19 Dec 2006 at 21:59

scott.holmes said:
Excellent remarks that, id agree 100% with that. And you mention Simon Jones, who is an awesome bowler and we did miss his this series :/

simon jones's injury was a huge influence in this series. Plunkett, mahmood and anderson are not anywhere near the same league as him when it comes to bowling and jones was also handy with the bat.
Englands batting linup has always been there weakness, it wasn't the greatest in ahses 05 and was weaker this time round. Flintoff batting for me is a worry, i cant remember the last decent innings he put together, hes trying to play proper cricket and thats not him where the lethal freddie (like a gilchrist/ afridi) hitting bid scores quickly. I must say i am impressed by collingwood, althoug nnot techniqly sound he has a gritty determination, and works for his runs.

Raymond Lin · 19 Dec 2006 at 22:17

Zap said:
so what? Different players, anything can happen.

Different players 20 years, and they only won it once.

The English fans have too much expectations in the Ashes, it's like England playing against Brazil in Football. Not arguging England can beat them on their day, except Brazil can will it on an off day with their reserve squad.

Yas786 · 19 Dec 2006 at 23:27

scott.holmes said:
Excellent remarks that, id agree 100% with that. And you mention Simon Jones, who is an awesome bowler and we did miss his this series :/

Ahhh good ole Simon jones eh??, his name keeps cropping up time and time again but yet he isnt even fit to play but is deemed good enough to help choose the team??. Answer me one thing WHY????, what makes him better than say Panesar to pick a team capable of winning the Ashes??.

As for him being good??, yes he did well against the Aussies last yr but hey lets stop living in the past...what makes u think that if he was fit this yr and playing...that he would be any good??. Have a good look at Warne for example....he hasnt even had a decent test with the ball...sure he's taken a few wickets here and there but hes had to work damn hard to get him...whereas last yr he was ripping England to shreds with his spin attack...just a shame that the Aussies lost it but as Raymond said earlier...every so often the clock breaks down and i guess the Aussies wanted the urn to go on a overseas trip to England

.

Seriously a lot of you seem to be fooling yourselves here...even with a fully fit squad from last yr...i still dont think you would have a hope in hell of retaining the Ashes...it might have been close but the Aussies would have beaten you psychologically if not with the bat and ball. The fact that Warne only has to mention to Bell about being a sherminator...is enough to throw his wicket away....As i said the best players so far in this series have been KP and Panesar....such a shame that England didnt play that lad earlier...they might have made a game out of this series.

As i said earlier on today, last yrs win was a pure and simple fluke..injuries or no injuries...look at the Aussie squad...they all over the age of 30 but yet still play even though they might be in a bit of pain ie old age creeping up etc. McGrath is a prime example of this...suffered from a heel infection but still managed to play in the 2nd test.

Anyways i am hoping England manage to regain some pride and not get royally ass spanked by the Aussies...that indeed would be a major embarrassment to the team and the whole country tbh.

Rich_L · 20 Dec 2006 at 08:59

Rumours that Warne & McGrath are to retire at the end of this series..

Do wonder how many of the current Aussie team are going to be left come the next Ashes, can't see Hayden & Langer being there somehow, will Gilchrist still be around as well?

Red and White · 20 Dec 2006 at 09:45

wonder if warne will retire if hes still stuck on 699 wickets.

he wont be unfortunatley though

harris1986 · 20 Dec 2006 at 11:46

Rich_L said:
Rumours that Warne & McGrath are to retire at the end of this series..

Do wonder how many of the current Aussie team are going to be left come the next Ashes, can't see Hayden & Langer being there somehow, will Gilchrist still be around as well?

the thing is oz have a lot of high quality players that will replace the likes of gilchrist-langer-hayden-warne-mcgrath! stuart clarke is already being bred as the new mcgrath, brad haddin will replace gilchrist, phil jaques will step in as a batstman and as he proved in the WA v England game he's quite talented! then you have the likes of mitchell johnson, shane watson, nathan bracken! what high quality players do englad have coming through? urm.... Steve Davies (worcester wicket keeper/batsman) and?

Yas786 · 20 Dec 2006 at 12:35

Rich_L said:
Rumours that Warne & McGrath are to retire at the end of this series..

Do wonder how many of the current Aussie team are going to be left come the next Ashes, can't see Hayden & Langer being there somehow, will Gilchrist still be around as well?

I can see MacGrath retiring as they already have a replacement lined up in him, goes by the name of Stuart Clarke and hes given you all sorts of trouble so far...so far so that MacGrath..other than the 1st Test hasnt really done much lately other than picking up a few wickets here and there.

As for Warne??, i wouldnt be at all surprised if he doesnt retire at the end of the Ashes...i still think hes got a few yrs left in him..woe be to England should he face them again in the Ashes after this series...he would be close to 40 :eek:

. I did read on cricinfo that they are concerned that he might be overdoing it as some criticism was levelled at Ponting for making him so bowl so much in this test...the first session of England 2nd innings he worked extremely hard to get that one wicket...and a lot of aussie critics were saying Ponting shouldnt have allowed that to happen. But what can he do or say to the fella who just wants to bowl and bowl and bowl some more...tell you this i wouldnt have wanted to be out there in that sweltering heat. Heck i batted 2 hrs the other night down in batting cages near where i live and i was soaked in sweat and it was quite cool as well.

Personally other than Ponting, Stuart Clarke, Hussey and a few others...i cant see anyone else sticking around. I dont think Langer and Hayden will play in another Ashes series nor do i think MacGrath and possibly Warne will either but should be interesting either way i think. As mentioned before...the Aussies have some excellent batsmen and bowlers coming up through the ranks...and thats pretty scary for any team let alone England. Also dont forget that Watson, the Aussie all rounder hasnt even figured in any of the Test matches...guess thats a relief for the English as hes pretty devastating with the bat and ball...much better than Flintoff imho.

platty · 20 Dec 2006 at 14:36

harris1986 said:
the thing is oz have a lot of high quality players that will replace the likes of gilchrist-langer-hayden-warne-mcgrath! stuart clarke is already being bred as the new mcgrath, brad haddin will replace gilchrist, phil jaques will step in as a batstman and as he proved in the WA v England game he's quite talented! then you have the likes of mitchell johnson, shane watson, nathan bracken! what high quality players do englad have coming through? urm.... Steve Davies (worcester wicket keeper/batsman) and?

Stuart Broad
Adil Rashid - Leg spinner who nearly took India on by himself for the under 19's with 10 wickets and scores of 114 & 48 with the bat.
Varun Chopra

Panesar and Cook are new on the scene themselves, both class acts. Cook with 4 centuries already and averaging 49.

The aussies won't collapse after these retirements as MacGill and Clark will take over the main bowling duties. MacGill must be the stop gap until they find a younger spinner long term. What they need to do is find a replacement for Gillespie. I really like Lee but they need more outta him and who ever takes the other bowling spot now.

There are three main reasons for the mess we're in at the moment IMO. Injuries, preparation and the pathetic selection arrangements.

Injuries to our captain and a bowler of the quality of Simon Jones would hurt any team. Then first choice backup in Anderson was looking good until he was injured. Then we have Freddies problems with his ankle.

The preparation was shocking. Nowhere near enough warm up, especially for the bowlers. How they didn't have Giles bowl in one of the warm up games after being out for a year and wanting to pick him for the first test boggles the mind. The ICC trophy was a joke, we should have sent a reserve/youth team there and had our players in Australia playing 4 day games there. If the ICC complain just say our current players are shocking at ODI's and we're trying some specialist and youth players.

The selections are a complete joke from top to bottom. How selection is left solely to Fletcher when the team is on tour is shocking considering how allegedly he wanted out of his role as a selector anyway. We need to take away his say on team selection and have a proper selection panel doing the job properly, including traveling with the team on tour. Also get rid of any say a players management committee has, if the selectors want to talk to an experienced player every now and again then fine but you can't have players meeting and openly discussing who should play especially when their own positions are in doubt.

Fletcher took a huge gamble and it failed. Listened to his press conference yesterday and I nearly choked on my drink when he said the phrase 'If it ain't broke don't meddle with it'. Coming from the man who just won a series 3-0 and then drops the person he described as the best finger spinner in the world for Giles, who has one of the worst bowling averages in ashes history and had been out for a year. Dropped Read who averaged 42 when given his chance for Jones who had been dropped already for not being good enough, his form in county cricket wasn't even good after the dropping. The only one I can maybe understand is Anderson for Mahmood but for me Mahmood should have played just because he was fully match fit.

Better handling of some of those along with a positive intent and going at them like we did last year and we would have made a better challenge. Not saying we'd have retained the ashes but we'd have had a decent chance, there are cracks in the Australian side but we didn't get close to exploiting them.