Boeing 777 shot down

[bloodiedathame]

unfortunately, there was no data on the boxes comrades... not that it would make much of a difference, us intelligence has confirmed a missile, they just dont know if it was from eastern ukraine or russia. The black boxes will only rule out mechanical fault which it pretty obviously was not.

I would hope it could verify the US intelligence. If it was hit by a missile there would, I imgine, be data to show; a sudden fire, loss of cabin pressure, system failure, loss of control etc

Not to mention the pilots communications.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Not to mention the pilots communications.

I doubt there would be any.

Looking at the debris field and the footage, the plane seems to have exploded mid air. Such a catastrophic event would preclude the pilots communicating.

Unless there was a warning system on board and they knew this missile was incoming. I am not really sure what kind of advanced warning systems a civillian airliner would have, though.

EDIT - if they were warned by an on board system, surely the first thing they would do is make a mayday call to air traffic control?

 

[Amp34]

The Ukrainian US/EU /Nato puppet president almost immediately came out and blamed the rebels, The western regime media came out and blamed Russia, john war mongering McCain said 'There's going to be hell to pay and there should be!': John McCain warns of 'incredible repercussions' if Russian forces or pro-Russian separatists downed MH17, I wonder if it turns out to be Ukraine will there be hell to pay then.

Obviously it could never be a terrible accident...

Accidents don't work well inpoljtics, especially when you have an agenda to push. It's why there won't be peacekeepers in the region, the west won't allow it.

 

[ubersonic]

I doubt there would be any.

Looking at the debris field and the footage, the plane seems to have exploded mid air. Such a catastrophic event would preclude the pilots communicating.

Unless there was a warning system on board and they knew this missile was incoming. I am not really sure what kind of advanced warning systems a civillian airliner would have, though.

On a Boeing the boxes are in the tail right? if it was blown off by the initial explosion the CVR wouldn't have been able to record any voices as it wouldn't be connected to the cockpit.

 

[jsmoke]

How do these SAMs work anyway, I thought Radar was fairly rough, do you pick up a ping and distance then fire in the general vicinity then search for a heat signature or how does it work?

Need to start arming commercial airliners with flares next. Sunbursts or whatever you call them.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Unless there was a warning system on board and they knew this missile was incoming. I am not really sure what kind of advanced warning systems a civillian airliner would have, though.

No warning systems on commercial airliners. Normally only fitted to exec jets/VIP/government flights etc.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

How do these SAMs work anyway, I thought Radar was fairly rough, do you pick up a ping and distance then fire in the general vicinity then search for a heat signature or how does it work?[

The radar identifies an initial target and guides the missile into the approximate vicinity of the aircraft, then the missile itself locks onto the aircraft when it's within a few thousand meters for more acurate tracking. It can use a mix of heat tracking, IR signitures, magentic or radar.

Need to start arming commercial airliners with flares next. Sunbursts or whatever you call them.

Why? It's easier and cheaper just to avoid conflict zones.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

On a Boeing the boxes are in the tail right? if it was blown off by the initial explosion the CVR wouldn't have been able to record any voices as it wouldn't be connected to the cockpit.

At that altitude the plane would explosively decompress as soon as the fusealage was breached.

It would happen so quickly that it would not matter where the missile hit.

 

[bloodiedathame]

There are no such things as accidents, only mistakes.

 

[anything I don't mind]

A stark reminder of what can happen when you supply what is effectively an organised yet inexperienced militia with comparitively advanced weaponry.

That about sums it up i think. I try not dwell on the emotion of it or i find it can get me too depressed, maybe i am just desensitised and tend to try look at it from an investigative perspective. There always seems to be these incidents of terrible events occurring. I just look in to it see what information i can find about it and then don't realy want to hear much about it after that. Unlike the media which tends to look in to who all the victims were have public vigils on tv for hours on end. I still think they should release the flight manifests, its important to verify the victims as part of any incident like this. I just hope this doesn't lead to a new major conflict, i think it may, i don't see the russian and ukrainians "learning their lessons" from this.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908

The separatists were said to have seized the Buk after overrunning a Ukrainian military base.

However, Ukraine's Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema has cast doubt on this, telling local media on Friday: "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems."

Ukraine has called the disaster an "act of terrorism", blaming it on Russia who it says has been aiding the rebels in the conflict and supplying them with advanced weapons.

"The Russians are done for. This is an international crime which must be investigated by the international tribunal in The Hague," Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said.

It seems the Ukranians now say the Russians have supplied the Buk system,and its not the ones they have had in the theatre themselves.

 

[Steedie]

This really is horrific. Such a tragedy and RIP to anyone on board. The only good thing is that it sounds like it would have been quick and over for anyone on board before they knew what was going on.

The way the bodies have fallen across such a large area is just horrible

 

[Boycey0211]

Missile specialist on BBC just said:

1) The Buk can fire without any operator input at all.
2) Anyone using it would have had to be trained for a minimum of a week in its use, an ordinary soldier would have no clue how to use it at all.

 

[Ayahuasca]

2 Newcastle fans on board travelling to a preseason game in New Zealand.

RIP to all on board. Lets hope they find out sooner rather than later who the perpetrators are.

 

[RedvGreen]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908



It seems the Ukranians now say the Russians have supplied the Buk system,and its not the ones they have had in the theatre themselves.

Don't they need the Target Acquisition Vehicle too? Surely operating these systems isn't a case of 'press the big red button', but a whole host of longwinded, if not complicated, procedures.

I've done some flight sims which are apparently 'realistic', and it is quite tricky to launch pretty much anything short of the heat-seeking sidewinders.

I'd imagine a multi-vehicle system is going to even more complicated.

 

[Steedie]

This is probably a repost but the plane was carrying 100 researchers on the way to an AIDS conference, some of the leading HIV/AIDS researchers were on board apparently.

Tin foil hats will no doubt be required by those saying some of those people were close or had a cure etc

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Missile specialist on BBC just said:

1) The Buk can fire without any operator input at all.
2) Anyone using it would have had to be trained for a minimum of a week in its use, an ordinary soldier would have no clue how to use it at all.

It may have already been mentioned but this further adds to the suspicion that the pro-russian rebels are being reinforced with russian army personnel 'in disguise'.

This is something the russians have been denying, but it does seem odd that a bunch of rebels are able to use such a sophisticated bit of kit.

 

[gizmoy2k]

Lets make it very simple then, Carpet bomb the pro Russian Separatists without delay, Ukraine wont care, and if their not Russian they wont care either.......Simples

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

Well a few sources I read claimed that the pro Russian separatists most certainly did have a Buk system when they took control of a military base, supposedly boasting and even posting pics of it on twitter?!? (anyone found the tweat??)

Also an independent reporter/news agency supposedly saw them with the Buk system as well!!
It does sound like an inexperienced group got their hands on some advanced kit and just about worked out how to launch it but not properly operate it, hence the mistaken target identity. No side in their right minds would have deliberately shot down a civilian plane.

Very very sad and tragic, thoughts are with the family & friends of the victims

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Don't they need the Target Acquisition Vehicle too? Surely operating these systems isn't a case of 'press the big red button', but a whole host of longwinded, if not complicated, procedures.

I've done some flight sims which are apparently 'realistic', and it is quite tricky to launch pretty much anything short of the heat-seeking sidewinders.

I'd imagine a multi-vehicle system is going to even more complicated.

Most likely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#3S90_.22Uragan.22

A standard Buk battalion consists of a command vehicle, target acquisition radar (TAR) vehicle, six transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) vehicles and three transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicles.

It may have already been mentioned but this further adds to the suspicion that the pro-russian rebels are being reinforced with russian army personnel 'in disguise'.

This is something the russians have been denying, but it does seem odd that a bunch of rebels are able to use such a sophisticated bit of kit.

Yes,but the slight problem is this:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news...014+Photo+Dmitry+Lovetsky/10004193/story.html

Ukrainian government forces maneuver antiaircraft missile launchers Buk as they are transported north-west from Slavyansk, eastern Ukraine Friday, July 4, 2014.

The Ukranian military had Buk systems in the theatre of operations,and that was from AP BTW.