Boeing 777 shot down

Dis86 said:
The SU-25s present couldn't and wouldn't escort the passenger plane.
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Agreed, escorting anything over Ukraine would be pointless as the rebels don't have any planes and if Russia randomly sent in fighters then Ukraine has nothing that could match them anyway.

Escorting a civilian aircraft would be even more pointless as random Russia jets wouldn't shoot a passenger plane and escorts would turn it into a target for SAMs, nobody would do it.
 
MrMoonX said:
NATO need to send in spcial forces to secure the crash site and ensure that it isn't messed with. The rebels are removing bodies that should be repatriated to holland etc. it's disgraceful
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I don't see the problem unless moving them now directly interferes with the investigation? Currently no investigation teams have arrived only crash site monitors who wouldn't move the bodies, so is recovering the dead instead of leaving them scrawled across fields all that bad? Looting of the corpses aside that is.
 
I'm merely pointing out that the Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces are similarly equipped, and Russia does not possess some overwhelming technological advantage that the Ukrainians can't challenge. The real question between the two is how much of their inventories they can get into the air, and how many trained and experienced crews they can call upon.

If the 2008 Ossetian war is anything to judge from, the Russian Air Force performed abysmally when you consider the disparity between the two sides involved.
 
The Funktopus said:
I'm merely pointing out that the Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces are similarly equipped, and Russia does not possess some overwhelming technological advantage that the Ukrainians can't challenge.
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That's not true at all, Russia could trounce Ukraine instantly, the Ukraine armed forces are a complete joke.
 
Strife212 said:
That's not true at all, Russia could trounce Ukraine instantly, the Ukraine armed forces are a complete joke.
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Name a recent conflict between larger countries where one has trounced the other instantly? The last time I can think of where one country trounced another large one in short order would be the coalition to release Kuwait which had a limited focus that didn't extend significantly into Iraq and was hardly even sided in technology or numbers and a massive preparatory air campaign. Prior to that you need to go back to China's dominant border clash over India and prior to that I would think Guderian charging across the low countries.
 
The Funktopus said:
I'm merely pointing out that the Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces are similarly equipped, and Russia does not possess some overwhelming technological advantage that the Ukrainians can't challenge.
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I see, sorry but your wrong, Ukraine has roughly a dozen SU27's and twenty or so MiG-29's all of which are mostly unchanged since Soviet times (except the handful of MiG's which have been upgraded). However Russia's active planes have been upgraded since then, the soviet era 29's have mostly been retired due to corrosion and lack of maintenance (Russia had limited funds in the 90's and used them to modernize the SU's at the cost of letting the MiG's rot). Their air force consists mostly of modernized SU27's, modernized MiG 29's and new SU-35's.

Sending a Ukranian MiG 29 up against a modernized Su-27 or 35 would be like sending a 1970's F-16 up against a brand new F-15 or F-22. It would be shot down before it had had chance to fire.
 
Skimming the last two pages; appears to have descended into my "knowledge of military aircraft" member is bigger than yours.
 
olivier renault said:
Georgia, even Crimea. Ukraine maybe large in size, but it's no match for Russia.
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I think you may want to actually read up on those before saying the meet that qualification because both of them do not.

xibinim said:
Skimming the last two pages; appears to have descended into my "knowledge of military aircraft" member is bigger than yours.
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Or alternatively people who have been/are in the forces are correcting people on certain areas that are within their knowledge base.
 
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this has Gulf Of Tonkin written all over it now, scary stuff really.

Don't nations, Russia and America obviously included, have a record of every missile being fired around the world through satellites? - so they know who fired what, from what piece of hardware, at what time. They know exactly where every plane is, satellites that can read your car number plate etc. All this is a PR and Media exercise to stir up hatred for the "sheeple". There are no solid facts yet, while this PR Media war is going on ... something else in the world is happening, and you can bet your bottom dollar the outcome will not be fluffy and cute.
 
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Xordium said:
Or alternatively people who have been/are in the forces are correcting people on certain areas that are within their knowledge base.
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Yeah pretty much. Like Fox said earlier, it's annoying when people come in these threads and make up their own facts. So when something is factually incorrect, it is beneficial to correct those mistakes. I personally find it interesting as I will no doubt learn something new. The problem is sometimes who is right and who is wrong :p
 
Captain Planet said:
The problem is sometimes who is right and who is wrong :p
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I think it is pretty obvious who has knowledge about subjects and who doesn't. There is a particular way that people with actual knowledge will apply that knowledge over and above the people who just google away and recite stuff from wikipedia. The application and context are generally poor even if the details are correct. They may give you an answer but it often won't be the best answer and that will only really be obvious to people who understand what is being talked about. The other one of course is when you have a 'trade' use for a word that has some common meaning and the person misapplies it because they don't understand that. That is another indication.
 
MrMoonX said:
NATO need to send in spcial forces to secure the crash site and ensure that it isn't messed with. The rebels are removing bodies that should be repatriated to holland etc. it's disgraceful
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after seeing this picture i now completely agree with this statement.

dHIvNzk.jpg
 
News this morning saying 196 bodies (I guess most of the rest might be slurry/annihilated) have now been removed from site, with emergency workers who helped bag them having no idea where they've been taken to by separatists. Relatives of the dead are going to go mental - seems like they'll never be able to repatriate/bury their loved ones as they'll all go 'missing' (probably via the nearest incinerator or a mass grave).
 
MrMoonX said:
NATO need to send in spcial forces to secure the crash site and ensure that it isn't messed with. The rebels are removing bodies that should be repatriated to holland etc. it's disgraceful
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You have not really thought this through have you?

Western special forces appear in Eastern Ukraine and will have to battle local militia for control of the area.

What do you think Russian reaction will be to Western forces killing people they see as kin?

Your suggestion will only ensure the situation grows far more dangerous.
 
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