Botched execution in the US

[Schlong&Stable]

Fortunately here in Europe we have evolved to appreciate that capital punishment is barbaric and outdated.

And look at the decadent and degenerate society in which we now live. We've got murderers suing the tax payer because he got beat up. This is no an 'evolution' at all.

Quite. It isn't justice, it is retribution.

It's justice.

 

[porushinobu]

Interestingly though, several have said that they don't support the death penalty because they believe that an entire life incarcerated is a worse punishment to the criminal. So they're back to the aim being as much retribution as possible.

Is that more or less archaic? I can't decide!

For clarity, I am anti-death penalty. But more for the sake of what we should hold society up to be, rather than for the sake of the punished. On the basis of that same standpoint, I can't agree with the idea of keeping people alive specifically so they can suffer more.

Would you suggest an alternative, they have to be kept appart from society somehow or they will just reoffend.

Perhaps forcing them into a life of a quadraplegic (I doubt I spelled that right) but then that may be a life to lavish despite the loss of freedom. We could also do the demolition man approach where they are cryogenically frozen and their minds altered to be rehabilitated as they sleep, then later released when the computer has sufficiently BSOD'd while in their heads

 

[glenimp617]

My dad worked at Lincoln Prison (retired last year).

They asked him at his job interview what he thought life in prison was like. He said, gloomy, depressing etc etc the reply he got was epic

"Have you seen the tv sitcom porridge?" well, that's what it's like

 

[Castiel]

It's justice.

It's not. Its state mandated retribution. Fair and objective Justice is always balanced with mercy, there is no mercy in retribution, only revenge.

As far as what prisons are like, I don't know about here in the UK, but in the US they are certainly not holiday camps...not by a long way.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

Raping an 11th month old baby has to be down to an ill state of mind. Therefore, why don't we hear about women pedophiles?

Women abuse children as well Plenty of cases in the past.

And look at the decadent and degenerate society in which we now live. We've got murderers suing the tax payer because he got beat up. This is no an 'evolution' at all.

Place's like Texas who execute people like it's going out of fashion have a much higher crime rate especially murder and violent crimes

It's justice.

Only if you are some sort of religious fanatic or still living in the dark ages

 

[FortuitousFluke]

I know someone who has worked in one and says it's a holiday camp.

He is an utter tit though, so I give little credence to his opinion.

My brother is a prison officer, whilst obviously it's only the viewpoint of a single person, he's of the opinion that conditions are bloody horrible. Back in 2008 it was suggested that 50% of prisoners spend 6 hours or less out of their cells per day, 20% spend 2 hours or less outside their cells per day (the target is that prisoners spend 10 hours per day outside their cells). Given the budget cuts the sector has experienced since then I would imagine it's a far worse situation now.

In response to the anticipated comments, no, they don't all have Xbox ones and PS4s in their cells.

 

[ubersonic]

No matter what this person's transgressions having to go through 40 minutes of heart attack before dying is not on.

Look up his transgressions, he got off easy

To save you time he brutally assaulted, raped and tortured his murder victim.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Nice thinly veiled racist post

Care to elaborate? It's a statistical fact that murder rates are highest amongst African-Americanism in impoverished areas. There is nothing racist about stating this fact.

So you are O.K with the state executing the mentally ill, the poor and individuals who have both the mental and intellectual age of young child

If they are committing horrific crimes, absolutely.

Capital punishment allows the criminals in your society to dictate your morality, it has no place in an evolved and civilized country!
Violence begets violence!!

I don't agree with your claim. In what way have criminals dictated my morality? No one has murdered me or anyone I personally cared about, I made a sober and rational decision. I think it's you who is allowing your morality to be dictated by others.

I would also like to point out that civilized societies exist precisely because they exercise the use of violence.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Because I consider it to be a just punishment.

I don't believe there is any value in rehabilitating someone who commits the most heinous of crimes. How can they ever repay society for the rape and murder of an infant?

Well that depends entirely on whether you want to get "value" from someone, and how "value" is actually measured. I don't think that we should get "value" from anyone who is incarcerated.

So the only possible reason to place them in prison is to torture them, which I do not approve of. It is more humane for them to just be hung and more just for society and the victims.

Again, it depends what you're referring to by torture. I would consider life imprisonment sufficient for heinous crimes. You lose your liberty, your family, your friends, your life. That's enough.

I don't agree with the deterrence angle, although the source posted earlier about how there are less murders in the north east USA is fairly chuckle-worthy. The north east of the USA is the richest region of the country with the lowest ethnic diversity. Of course it has a lower murder rate.

I think (I don't have the source) that it has been shown that capital punishment does nothing to deter criminals. In most cases, crimes like these are spur of the moment emotional decisions, and have no prior motive, therefore meaning that deterrents are irrelevant. In the case of pre-meditated crimes, anyone who plans a crime such as these doesn't care about the consequences or is fully aware of them.

Why do you say of course it has a lower murder rate? I'm guessing you're referring to the evidence that says that immigration and ethnic diversity cause economic difficulties, which results in higher crime?


Capital punishment is absolute hypocrisy.

 

[arknor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27215508

European drugs companies are refusing to supply the chemicals used in lethal injections for the purposes of administering the death penalty. Some states are using untried methods of execution to get around that and this is the inevitable result. Uncontrollable shaking for 40 minutes followed by death from a heart attack. Ugh. No matter what the chap has done no-one deserves that.

It's KARMA for what he did

Lockett was sentenced to die for the 1999 murder of 19-year-old Stephanie Nieman, who was kidnapped, shot twice and buried alive.

What happened to him is humane compared to what he did!

shot twice and buried alive vs 40 minute seizure and heart attack what would you choose?

 

[elmarko]

Quite. It isn't justice, it is retribution.

Indeed.

I've always thought of it like this.

1. There is no evidence to support it acts as a deterrent.

2. For any other crimes other than murder, the person involved has everything to gain & nothing to lose to kill any witnesses to avoid death (child rape becomes child rape, then murder).

3. It's impossible to undo. Juries are bias, judges are bias - people make mistakes, our justice system is fallible - these are facts which can't be ignored.

Life imprisonment retains the ability to let them out if it turns out they are innocent.

4. Giving the state the authority to kill it's own citizens opens up it's own set of moral & ethical hazards & is far to authoritarian for my liking.

It's KARMA for what he did

There is no such thing as Karma, what evil deeds did the baby do to deserve being raped?. (using the same Karma 'logic')

 

[ubersonic]

Fortunately here in Europe we have evolved to appreciate that capital punishment is barbaric and outdated.

You mean we've gotten soft and started stockpiling our unredeemable criminals in prisons so they can "educate" less competent criminals >.>

Men get arrested. Dogs get put down

 

[Schlong&Stable]

It's not. Its state mandated retribution. Fair and objective Justice is always balanced with mercy, there is no mercy in retribution, only revenge.

What is wrong with retribution? Retribution is a form of justice.

As far as what prisons are like, I don't know about here in the UK, but in the US they are certainly not holiday camps...not by a long way.

Compared to death, they are pretty generous. Compared to an existence of millions throughout sub-Saharan Africa, it's a holiday camp.

I'd rather be in prison than hanged or living in DR Congo.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

I think (I don't have the source) that it has been shown that capital punishment does nothing to deter criminals. In most cases, crimes like these are spur of the moment emotional decisions, and have no prior motive, therefore meaning that deterrents are irrelevant. In the case of pre-meditated crimes, anyone who plans a crime such as these doesn't care about the consequences or is fully aware of them.

Why do you say of course it has a lower murder rate? I'm guessing you're referring to the evidence that says that immigration and ethnic diversity cause economic difficulties, which results in higher crime?.

I agree the deterrence value of capital punishment is low, which is why I said I disagreed with that angle of the debate. There will be some deterrence, but not for murder unrelated to economic benefit. I think drug dealers and so forth might be deterred if they risked a death penalty.

And areas with higher incomes and less ethnic diversity have much lower crime rates.

 

[porushinobu]

My brother is a prison officer, whilst obviously it's only the viewpoint of a single person, he's of the opinion that conditions are bloody horrible. Back in 2008 it was suggested that 50% of prisoners spend 6 hours or less out of their cells per day, 20% spend 2 hours or less outside their cells per day (the target is that prisoners spend 10 hours per day outside their cells). Given the budget cuts the sector has experienced since then I would imagine it's a far worse situation now.

In response to the anticipated comments, no, they don't all have Xbox ones and PS4s in their cells.

They still get better education than I could ever afford

 

[Castiel]

What is wrong with retribution?

Because it is an act of simple retaliation, not objective justice.

Compared to death, they are pretty generous. Compared to an existence of millions throughout sub-Saharan Africa, it's a holiday camp.

I'd rather be in prison than hanged or living in DR Congo.

Having been in both the DRC and a US youth detention centre, the Detention centre was worse. Given that I know at least one person who hung themselves whilst in a detention centre, they clearly thought, unlike you that hanging was preferable. In any case the comparisons are silly...you may as well say that being homeless is worse than imprisonment, that doesn't mean we should imprison homeless people because it's better for them...

So your argument is subjective at best.

 

[arknor]

There is no such thing as Karma, what evil deeds did the baby do to deserve being raped?. (using the same Karma 'logic')

yea yea karma is a lot of crap but still he earned his own rewards and had it coming

Compared to death, they are pretty generous. Compared to an existence of millions throughout sub-Saharan Africa, it's a holiday camp.

I'd rather be in prison than hanged or living in DR Congo.

An American prison? you might want watch some documentaries

although I'd rather be in an American prison that one on the continent of Africa

 

[JHeaton]

They still get better education than I could ever afford

Are you saying it's bad that they're educated, or bad that you can't afford it?

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Thompson, I don't think you're changing anyone's mind.

 

[bazzabear]

Would you suggest an alternative

The alternative I would suggest isn't necessarily a different set of actions, merely a different moral standpoint - which could easily result in the same eventual decision.

We shouldn't be deciding how our society treats people based on revenge.