Botched execution in the US

[matt_fsr]

Indeed.
4. Giving the state the authority to kill it's own citizens opens up it's own set of moral & ethical hazards & is far to authoritarian for my liking.

Agreed, and I dislike the notion of this.

However, the 'previous' situation before the existence of such as thing as a 'state' was that one of the affected family members would seek retribution, and so you end up in a tribal-style blood feud situation where random killings keep going on year after year.....

And I was disappointed that it only took him ~40 minutes to die. He's had 15 years of life longer than his victim, so I don't feel even slightly sorry for him. Maybe that's a barbaric view. Oh well.

 

[Efour]

I've always thought of it like this.

1. There is no evidence to support it acts as a deterrent.
Its not a deterrent its a permanent solution to the problem

2. For any other crimes other than murder, the person involved has everything to gain & nothing to lose to kill any witnesses to avoid death (child rape becomes child rape, then murder).
ok

3. It's impossible to undo. Juries are bias, judges are bias - people make mistakes, our justice system is fallible - these are facts which can't be ignored.
Life imprisonment retains the ability to let them out if it turns out they are innocent.
These guys in the example are 100% guilty there would be no mistakes in this case. Any doubt lock them up.

4. Giving the state the authority to kill it's own citizens opens up it's own set of moral & ethical hazards & is far to authoritarian for my liking.
yeah its a minefield. agreed.

 

[Freefaller]

Look up his transgressions, he got off easy

To save you time he brutally assaulted, raped and tortured his murder victim.

Whatever he did - being tortured to death is backward and barbaric - to be a civilised race we need to step up to the challenge of bettering ourselves and those around us, killing the guy won't undo what he's done. It may in the short term give you some sort of solace but long term it serves no purpose.

Even the woman involved didn't wish the death penalty on him. Surely in that case it means that this retribution is unfounded?

What is wrong with retribution? Retribution is a form of justice.

It's not, it's just a barbaric "eye for an eye" sort of act - it serves no justice at all. It's pure cold blooded revenge - not even a "crime de passion". So what if he's dead - it doesn't undo what he's done, it doesn't absolve him of anything, and it puts blood on the hands of the innocent that are involved in the case. And in many cases leaves people feeling empty and as though no justice has actually been undertaken.

Just because someone is guilty, it doesn't mean they should die for their crimes. The power of forgiveness, and rehabilitation is far more poignant a message to put out there in the universe. It shows evolution, compassion and a move away from barbarism.

 

[porushinobu]

Are you saying it's bad that they're educated, or bad that you can't afford it?

its bad that I should pay for such things and be excluded from what I want to learn, while these people are handed it for nothing. Sure I appreciate that they want to learn, but why should I go without because I am a law abiding citizen who earns less than those who dont work.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

Care to elaborate? It's a statistical fact that murder rates are highest amongst African-Americanism in impoverished areas. There is nothing racist about stating this fact.

Which as all the statistics and research has clearly shown has everything to do with socioeconomic and poverty and nothing to do with race, but hey don't let empirical evidence get in the way of a sly bigoted dig

If they are committing horrific crimes, absolutely.

It has NOTHING to do with the severity of the crime in this utterly flawed and unjust system in America, it has EVERYTHING to do with WHO committed the crime! If you are poor and black you are significantly more likely to be given the death penalty, meta data and comprehensive studies clearly show this!!
What a great JUST system hey

I would also like to point out that civilized societies exist precisely because they exercise the use of violence.

Utter ignorant nonsense
You do realize that the safest countries to live in abolished capital punishment eons ago

 

[RDM]

its bad that I should pay for such things and be excluded from what I want to learn, while these people are handed it for nothing. Sure I appreciate that they want to learn, but why should I go without because I am a law abiding citizen who earns less than those who dont work.

You do realise that most of the education they get is the same as you were given when you went to school?

 

[porushinobu]

You do realise that most of the education they get is the same as you were given when you went to school?

I was under the impreion they get a college education.

 

[Freefaller]

Indeed.

I've always thought of it like this.

1. There is no evidence to support it acts as a deterrent.

Agreed, else why would people still be doing crimes.

2. For any other crimes other than murder, the person involved has everything to gain & nothing to lose to kill any witnesses to avoid death (child rape becomes child rape, then murder).

Indeed, it has a chance of escalating a criminal to do more than he had intentionally or not planned (or unplanned) on doing.

3. It's impossible to undo. Juries are bias, judges are bias - people make mistakes, our justice system is fallible - these are facts which can't be ignored.

Life imprisonment retains the ability to let them out if it turns out they are innocent.

Absolutely correct - and there are also chances that people will offer compassion and forgiveness (a concept 99% of people are unable to accept, but it does happen.)

4. Giving the state the authority to kill it's own citizens opens up it's own set of moral & ethical hazards & is far to authoritarian for my liking.

It forces a moral code that basically makes killing "okay" in the right circumstances which I'm vehemently against and very uncomfortable with.

There is no such thing as Karma, what evil deeds did the baby do to deserve being raped?. (using the same Karma 'logic')

I believe that if you put positive energy out in the world, in general people react positively - the more positivity you put upon others, the more likely you are to get it back. Whether that is "karma" or not, I do not know (I don't follow a Buddhist lifestyle) but the concept of "treat those the way you wish to be treated" ties in well with this concept.

 

[elmarko]

quote

The problem is, plenty of people have been executed in situations they believed to have compete proof.

I mean, we can't say it's beyond the possibility of reason that say - physical evidence was planted (enough to qualify in the eyes of many of perfect evidence).

Regardless as to how people feel about how just/unjust the death penalty may be, killing the wrong people will inevitably happen as our justice system is fallible (no matter how high we set the bar).

Agreed, else why would people still be doing crimes.

Indeed, it has a chance of escalating a criminal to do more than he had intentionally or not planned (or unplanned) on doing.

Absolutely correct - and there are also chances that people will offer compassion and forgiveness (a concept 99% of people are unable to accept, but it does happen.)

It forces a moral code that basically makes killing "okay" in the right circumstances which I'm vehemently against and very uncomfortable with.

I believe that if you put positive energy out in the world, in general people react positively - the more positivity you put upon others, the more likely you are to get it back. Whether that is "karma" or not, I do not know (I don't follow a Buddhist lifestyle) but the concept of "treat those the way you wish to be treated" ties in well with this concept.

Oh I agree from a behavioural point of view, but the Karma aspect implies that a persons actions result in consequences (which isn't quite the same), as it goes beyond the rational causal relationships you mentioned into the lands of mysticism.

It's similar to that rubbish 'laws of attraction' stuff in 'the secret', as with many things - it takes an element of reality, then bolts on some additional tosh to the point of absurdity.

 

[ubersonic]

to be a civilised race we need to step up to the challenge of bettering ourselves and those around us

Exactly, and removing human write offs like him without the expense of locking them up until the end of time is a good thing

Even the woman involved didn't wish the death penalty on him.

The woman he brutally assaulted, raped, tortured and murdered?

So what if he's dead - it doesn't undo what he's done

It isn't supposed to, it punished him for his crime and served as a warning to others.

 

[ubersonic]

1. There is no evidence to support it acts as a deterrent.

Yes there is.

Life imprisonment retains the ability to let them out if it turns out they are innocent.

This guy has been held in prison for 15 years, on average a US murderer awaiting execution spends longer in jail than a UK murder does for their sentence.

There is no such thing as Karma, what evil deeds did the baby do to deserve being raped?. (using the same Karma 'logic')

No that's not even remotely close to being the same logic, the baby wasn't being punished for it's crimes by the law it was a victim.

 

[JHeaton]

its bad that I should pay for such things and be excluded from what I want to learn, while these people are handed it for nothing. Sure I appreciate that they want to learn, but why should I go without because I am a law abiding citizen who earns less than those who dont work.

I was under the impreion they get a college education.

I believe the most common qualifications are GCSE-level, however they do have access to NVQs and some courses to learn practical skills such as woodworking. It's definitely a good thing that these are provided, as it actually gives them something upon release. If we were to deny them that, and just leave them doing nothing in cells all day (which seems to be a popular opinion for some reason), where does that leave them when they get out?

I believe they are also able to do Open University courses, but I don't know if those are free or they are required to take out a student loan like everyone else. Perhaps someone else knows?

Exactly, and removing human write offs like him without the expense of locking them up until the end of time is a good thing

The cost of imprisoning someone for life is significantly less than the overall process of placing someone on death row and ultimately executing them.

It isn't supposed to, it punished him for his crime and served as a warning to others.

Yes there is.

Source please.

 

[AmyS]

The woman he brutally assaulted, raped, tortured and murdered?

The man who took 40 minutes to die didn't rape anybody. He shot a 19 year old girl who stumbled upon a robbery.
The article in the OP's link mentions two men on death row, the second one who was going to be executed had raped and murdered a baby and the baby's mother didn't want him killed for his crime.

 

[elmarko]

Yes there is.

Citation needed.

This guy has been held in prison for 15 years, on average a US murderer awaiting execution spends longer in jail than a UK murder does for their sentence.

Could you explain how a person executed after 15 years has a greater chance of being let out than somebody who wasn't executed after 15 years?.

No that's not even remotely close to being the same logic, the baby wasn't being punished for it's crimes by the law it was a victim.

Since when was Karma the law?, it's a mystical concept which implies the murderer got what he deserved (a bad thing) due to his actions.

If a person believes in Karma then surely by the same logic why did the baby have a bad thing happen to them if they did nothing wrong? (unless of course, the entire concept of Karma is a load of *******).

 

[Mirmo]

The man who took 40 minutes to die didn't rape anybody. He shot a 19 year old girl who stumbled upon a robbery.
The article in the OP's link mentions two men on death row, the second one who was going to be executed had raped and murdered a baby and the baby's mother didn't want him killed for his crime.

The first did a lot more than just shoot her. He was also convicted of rape.

 

[Andy_82]

shouldn't this count as a cruel or unusual punishment, I mean potassium infussion without local anesthetic is very unpleasent, even if the vein blew. Not sure what the other drugs are beside midazolam, think i remember reading hydromorphone.

But dieing that way would certainly be extremely painful, no matter what the guy did, the punishment was death, not torture and then death.

 

[porushinobu]

I believe they are also able to do Open University courses, but I don't know if those are free or they are required to take out a student loan like everyone else. Perhaps someone else knows?
.

As I said, I do agree with them getting education, and may have also been misinformed/ mistaken as to what's available to them.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Which as all the statistics and research has clearly shown has everything to do with socioeconomic and poverty and nothing to do with race, but hey don't let empirical evidence get in the way of a sly bigoted dig

I never said race was the factor, I said diversity was.

It has NOTHING to do with the severity of the crime in this utterly flawed and unjust system in America, it has EVERYTHING to do with WHO committed the crime! If you are poor and black you are significantly more likely to be given the death penalty, meta data and comprehensive studies clearly show this!!
What a great JUST system hey

What has this got to do with the question posed and my response? The American system may be flawed, but that doesn't change anything.

Utter ignorant nonsense
You do realize that the safest countries to live in abolished capital punishment eons ago

I was not speaking of capital punishment exclusively in the text you quote. Norway still has a military and armed police officers. The use of deadly force is mandated for.

 

[AmyS]

The first did a lot more than just shoot her.

Ahh, I have just read that now, he raped her friend.

 

[ubersonic]

The man who took 40 minutes to die didn't rape anybody. He shot a 19 year old girl who stumbled upon a robbery.

Correct, after raping her, beating her and sodomizing her with his shotgun.

http://newsok.com/three-face-charges-in-perry-crime-spree/article/2656291/?page=1