Bruce Lee vs Modern Martial Arts

spoffle said:
I've had first hand experience of this, I've sparred with some people with BJJ experience, and in my case, strength and weight made a massive difference when I had literally no BJJ experience.

If someone can't move your arms or haven't got the strength to choke you out, their level of experience and technique are useless.

You know, their grip is easily broken so they can't hold a choke, they can't perform an arm bar because they couldn't break my grip, that sort of stuff.

I didn't win, but I didn't lose, because I didn't know how to do anything it was just me resisting until they got bored and gave up.
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As a small (70kg) BJJ practitioner myself I also have first hand experience with this. Infact I beat a 110kg guy in a grappling competition a month or 2 back.

The guy you were rolling with probably just wasn't very good.

I'm not saying the small guy will always be able to submit the big guy, I mean if your arms are 3 times the size of my legs it's gonna be difficult but the small guy should be able to at least dominate.

Xordium said:
When has ground and pound been associated BJJ it's more associated with a wrestling focused fighter. :confused:
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Ground and Pound is a relatively new concept. It's neither BJJ nor wrestling. Wrestling can negate BJJ somewhat as can ground and pound. But BJJ can also negate wrestling and ground and pound itself. Again, it depends on the skill level. However, the Gracies were using ground and pound before MMA even existed. The best MMA fighters use all 3.
 
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ShortWarning said:
As a small (70kg) BJJ practitioner myself I also have first hand experience with this. Infact I beat a 110kg guy in a grappling competition a month or 2 back.

The guy you were rolling with probably just wasn't very good.

I'm not saying the small guy will always be able to submit the big guy, I mean if your arms are 3 times the size of my legs it's gonna be difficult but the small guy should be able to at least dominate.
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Good and ability means nothing if you can't physically produce the force necessary to choke out your opponent, or get them to tap out from a choke.

Or if they can't break your grip whilst defending an arm bar. So it really doesn't matter how many techniques you know if when you use them they don't work.

That's my point really, technique is only important if you have the strength to apply the force required against your opponent.
 
spoffle said:
Good and ability means nothing if you can't physically produce the force necessary to choke out your opponent, or get them to tap out from a choke.

Or if they can't break your grip whilst defending an arm bar. So it really doesn't matter how many techniques you know if when you use them they don't work.

That's my point really, technique is only important if you have the strength to apply the force required against your opponent.
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Are we talking about fighting or grappling? I don't need to be able to break you grip if I'm elbowing you in the face. Weaker guys are capable of submitting stronger guys anyway, just because you didn't get submitted by one person doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, if you're not winning you're losing whether your grip can be broken or not. If you're being dominated how can you possibly win the fight? I'm not sure what your point is?
 
ShortWarning said:
Are we talking about fighting or grappling? I don't need to be able to break you grip if I'm elbowing you in the face. Weaker guys are capable of submitting stronger guys anyway, just because you didn't get submitted by one person doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, if you're not winning you're losing whether your grip can be broken or not. If you're being dominated how can you possibly win the fight? I'm not sure what your point is?
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It was grappling. I didn't say it was impossible, but this guy was doing the coaching for it, and is by no means weak.

I'm just pointing out that technique is useless if your power isn't high enough, that's it. I also wasn't being dominated. After I learnt a bit of technique, I was able to make use of my weight and strength advantage.
 
spoffle said:
It was grappling. I didn't say it was impossible, but this guy was doing the coaching for it, and is by no means weak.

I'm just pointing out that technique is useless if your power isn't high enough, that's it. I also wasn't being dominated. After I learnt a bit of technique, I was able to make use of my weight and strength advantage.
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What MA background do you come from? Also, what BJJ school was this? Was the coach graded?

The part in bold is completely wrong. If you're technique is good enough you don't need strength. Check out Marcello Garcia on the internet. He toys with guys twice his size using minimal strength. I regularly submit guys 20kg+ heavier than me although with nowhere near as much ease as him and I'm not particularly good.
 
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ShortWarning said:
What MA background do you come from? Also, what BJJ school was this? Was the coach graded?

The part in bold is completely wrong. If you're technique is good enough you don't need strength. Check out Marcello Garcia on the internet. He toys with guys twice his size using minimal strength. I regularly submit guys 20kg+ heavier than me although with nowhere near as much ease as him.
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It's not completely wrong. You're managing to submit because you can create enough force to submit that person.

It was just some place I went with friends. I don't do martial arts, I'm into strength training though.

My point, is essentially what you've just said anyway. I was having a spar with a friend, he was trying an arm bar and couldn't get me on it because he didn't have the strength to. I could lift him off the ground by doing a "fly" motion (as in like dumbbell flies).

In such a situation, how does technique get you past not being strong enough to perform an armbar?
 
spoffle said:
It's not completely wrong. You're managing to submit because you can create enough force to submit that person.

It was just some place I went with friends. I don't do martial arts, I'm into strength training though.

My point, is essentially what you've just said anyway. I was having a spar with a friend, he was trying an arm bar and couldn't get me on it because he didn't have the strength to. I could lift him off the ground by doing a "fly" motion (as in like dumbbell flies).

In such a situation, how does technique get you past not being strong enough to perform an armbar?
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How much does your friend weigh? I weigh 70kg, if I'm using technique correctly you would have probably about 50kg of force on your arm and 20kg of weight on your head. If you can fly 70kg then, yes, it would be difficult. In that situation I'd give up the arm bar and move onto something else.

Technique is about using what you do have to it's fullest. There are very few people who can fly 70kg but for those that can, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
 
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spoffle said:
It's not completely wrong. You're managing to submit because you can create enough force to submit that person.

It was just some place I went with friends. I don't do martial arts, I'm into strength training though.

My point, is essentially what you've just said anyway. I was having a spar with a friend, he was trying an arm bar and couldn't get me on it because he didn't have the strength to. I could lift him off the ground by doing a "fly" motion (as in like dumbbell flies).

In such a situation, how does technique get you past not being strong enough to perform an armbar?
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I think BJJ is massively over rated these days in all but a few areas, as wrestling trumps it 9/10 times, or at least renders it useless, how ever your friend must be new to BJJ if you let him arm bar you and you simply dumbbell flied him. Mariuz Pudzonovski (worlds strongest man x 3) has been beaten by BJJ techniques twice by people who were a lot less strong than him.
 
spoffle said:
It's not completely wrong. You're managing to submit because you can create enough force to submit that person.

It was just some place I went with friends. I don't do martial arts, I'm into strength training though.

My point, is essentially what you've just said anyway. I was having a spar with a friend, he was trying an arm bar and couldn't get me on it because he didn't have the strength to. I could lift him off the ground by doing a "fly" motion (as in like dumbbell flies).

In such a situation, how does technique get you past not being strong enough to perform an armbar?
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Your friend is obviously rubbish at grappling.

BJJ was designed for the smaller weaker man to defeat the bigger stronger man, that was the whole idea of it.
 
ShortWarning said:
You're right of course so why are you saying it's a wrestling focused technique?
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"Ground and pound" is associated with wrestling style fighters because good wrestling get's you in the position where you can utilise "ground and pound". I mean seriously if you've gained decent position why bother going for the fancy stuff unless your name is Shinya Aoki.
 
Disclaimer: I think Bruce Lee is awesome - inspirational and skilled, he brought Martial Arts to the attention of the World, conveying a message that still has ramifications in our lives today.

I think his chances in the Octagon would purely be dependent on the force per square inch of his Strikes. Remember, at his body weight (135 lb) he would normally be in the lower-end of the Bantam Weight Division. I know that when he was strength-training and bulking up his maximum weight was 165 pounds, but the lower figure is generally accepted as his weight.

So, I would say that given the above, and that he was only 32 when he died (he would be at peak fitness if he fought at that age), then yes, for sure he would have been a strong contender in the current UFC.
 
Xordium said:
"Ground and pound" is associated with wrestling style fighters because good wrestling get's you in the position where you can utilise "ground and pound". I mean seriously if you've gained decent position why bother going for the fancy stuff unless your name is Shinya Aoki.
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BJJ is about positioning as well? "Position before submission". Your first sentence directly applies to BJJ as well.

Generally wrestlers are better at ground and pound but there's plenty off BJJ practitioners in MMA or are just as good.

Random Guy said:
D

I think his chances in the Octagon would purely be dependent on the force per square inch of his Strikes. Remember, at his body weight (135 lb) he would normally be in the lower-end of the Bantam Weight Division. I know that when he was strength-training and bulking up his maximum weight was 165 pounds, but the lower figure is generally accepted as his weight.
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That has little to do with what makes a great fighter. Knock out power is important but there have been champions without it especially in MMA where there are other ways you can win.
 
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ShortWarning said:
BJJ is about positioning as well? "Position before submission". Your first sentence directly applies to BJJ as well.

Generally wrestlers are better at ground and pound but there's plenty off BJJ practitioners in MMA or are just as good.
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But the basic goal of BJJ is to do something with the position. At its purest form wrestling is about maintaining the position. That's why they then utilise such a strategy when they've gained the position.
 
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