Not sure what you are saying then? You seem to be making an argument she doesn't have male advantage then said you aren't saying she has some gender advantage?
Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics
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Soldato
I think there is more nuance to this one, Khelif most certainly was a 'girl' at birth and I would not question that she grew up entirely on the presumption she was female..
This can happen with DSD, but I think from what I can see, puberty is probably where her male biological side (XY) developed her physique which is most certainly at a point this is masuline and gives a marked advantage.
However, the IOC are tools, this is what I posted in the SC thread after people complained about claims of Wokery and the IOC:
Its a complex subject, but one that I think is fair to criticise the IOC on and seems to be fuelled from a progressive ideological stance to push inclusion where it is not able to be adequately defined/controlled.
In 2021 the IOC released their new framework for inclusion which was billed as trying to increase the number of intersex, trans and females with high hormone levels in the Olympics.
The framework effectively was for each sporting federation to apply, but fundamentally it's flawed to a point of being useless, it requires "no presumption of advantage" and requires "peer reviewed evidence to show an advantage" (which in and of itself doesn't sound too bad), however the science is so incomplete in this area it doesn't even touch the sides.
So much so, in defending the IOCs decision (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...failed-gender-tests-to-compete-paris-olympics) we get some great admissions
In this exact case, the sporting federation (IBA) already followed that instruction and banned both DSD competitors (which neither fully contested) for having an advantage only for the IOC after parting ways to magically find a way to ignore that and accept them anyway.
I don't blame the athletes one bit, I put this squarely on the IOC pandering to ideologies that crumble when they meet reality head on.
This can happen with DSD, but I think from what I can see, puberty is probably where her male biological side (XY) developed her physique which is most certainly at a point this is masuline and gives a marked advantage.
However, the IOC are tools, this is what I posted in the SC thread after people complained about claims of Wokery and the IOC:
Its a complex subject, but one that I think is fair to criticise the IOC on and seems to be fuelled from a progressive ideological stance to push inclusion where it is not able to be adequately defined/controlled.
In 2021 the IOC released their new framework for inclusion which was billed as trying to increase the number of intersex, trans and females with high hormone levels in the Olympics.
The framework effectively was for each sporting federation to apply, but fundamentally it's flawed to a point of being useless, it requires "no presumption of advantage" and requires "peer reviewed evidence to show an advantage" (which in and of itself doesn't sound too bad), however the science is so incomplete in this area it doesn't even touch the sides.
So much so, in defending the IOCs decision (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...failed-gender-tests-to-compete-paris-olympics) we get some great admissions
In this exact case, the sporting federation (IBA) already followed that instruction and banned both DSD competitors (which neither fully contested) for having an advantage only for the IOC after parting ways to magically find a way to ignore that and accept them anyway.
I don't blame the athletes one bit, I put this squarely on the IOC pandering to ideologies that crumble when they meet reality head on.
Don
100% this
Every trans person who takes a place in women's sport is displacing a dedicated elite athlete that has fought tooth and nail to get their spot. 99.99% of them will congratulate their better on their achievements (provided it was done within the rules), and go back to getting better to try and win next time. That is sport. Playing within a set of rules that means the playing field is as level as it can be, given the normal range of physical dimorphism in a sex.
If a person's sex is in any way "complicated" I am very sorry about that, especially if it affects that person negatively in any way. However, allowing these "anomalies" into women's sport is simply failing to protect that sport's integrity, and hurts EVERYONE else in that sport.
The governing bodies are mostly failing at this for the moment. I am not sure why, but for me, totally destroying women's sports to not hurt a small minority of people who have an unfair and unusual "advantage" is daft.
Caporegime
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Imane Khelif is not trans though.
Where do we stop if we start banning people for a genetic advantage? Should we stop black people being runners? Should we stop tall people playing Basketball? Stop the Brock Lesnars of the World doing amateur wrestling?
Where do we stop if we start banning people for a genetic advantage? Should we stop black people being runners? Should we stop tall people playing Basketball? Stop the Brock Lesnars of the World doing amateur wrestling?
Soldato
Have you got a source that backs up your stance that Khelif has testes and "doesn't really have female bits"?
Reporting so far doesn't seem to suggest that is the case with her.
But that doesn't suggest she "doesn't really have female bits" and more that you're assuming, which is the problem.
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Soldato
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Do you accept categories as a concept? Do you accept women's sport? Should biological males compete in women's sport? What criteria do you recommend if the current rules are not up to it?
If your abnormal average means you get an advantage within the boundaries of your sex and all other competitors within that group, yeah you deserve to be banned as you are not operating within acceptable and appropriate averages.
Yeah its no one's fault and not even your own, but maybe best not trying to have an advantage over your entire gender in combat sports which can result in injury and trauma.
If a guy born with a 3rd leg, then can run the 100m distance in 4 seconds, should he be banned? In my view, yes. They do not operate under the acceptable averages for that sport.
Don
That’s the IBA confirming that both boxers were tested and found to have XY chromosomes.
Soldato
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Yes.
Ban everything.
It's the simplest solution, don't you know....?
You could do a load of studies and exhaustive testing of each athlete in each discipline to assess what, if any, advantage they actually have... but it's far simpler and cheaper to just use some headline quotes from very limited studies and, ignoring the challenges of peer scientists, just ban anyone you don't like.
Soldato
I think this is the crux of the issue, she didn't transition and it's genetics which is a massive can of worms if that's how folk tend to slice it.
Does her testosterone, muscle mass, physique etc equate to that of a typical male athlete though? Or, as a few of us have wondered, does she sit somewhere in the middle between the two genders?
Whilst i agree that it could be argued she has an advantage over the average female, i would argue throwing her into male categories could also be seen to be unfair.
As someone mentioned, this is a complex issue and imo, i don't think there's been enough research/science into determining the exact advantages she has, if she does at all - her results wouldn't suggest that she does though.
If chromosomes determine categories, where are we putting the 'Jacob' (XYY) athletes?
Soldato
Can someone with XY chromosomes have only female organs?
I'm saying only because intersex people tend to have both, even if some aren't fully developed.
I'm saying only because intersex people tend to have both, even if some aren't fully developed.
So Michael Phelps should have all of his medals stripped as he has advantages that most swimmers will not have?
He's taller than your average swimmer
Has a bigger wingspan/positive ape index than most swimmers
Produces less than half of the lactic acid that his competitors produce.
Abnormally large lung capacity.
He literally has advantages that his contemporaries can't get through any amount of hard work or training. Is it fair he gets to compete with these advantages? Should black people be counted out from sports which heavily rely on having more fast twitch muscle fibres?
When you starting going down a hole of which natural advantages can and can't exist, it gets pretty messy.
Soldato
BBC News - Boxing controversy - what we know and what we don't
It was a bit surreal watching some bloke break a woman's nose in a boxing match, and see her have to retire to "preserve her own life". I'm a live and let live type of person, but really this is pretty mental?
Olympics 2024 boxing controversy: What we know and what we don't know
The IOC's decision to allow the entry of two athletes, that are said to have failed gender eligibility tests, has proved controversial.
www.bbc.com
It was a bit surreal watching some bloke break a woman's nose in a boxing match, and see her have to retire to "preserve her own life". I'm a live and let live type of person, but really this is pretty mental?
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It’s important to remember this isn’t a transgender case so shouldn’t be seen through that lens. This is a genuine case where sex and gender is complicated.
The Italian boxer also apologised today, I think they were really surprised by how much it’s taken off in the last day.
The Italian boxer also apologised today, I think they were really surprised by how much it’s taken off in the last day.
Soldato
The olympics are copying strictly.
Ballroom dancing not necessary.
Ballroom dancing not necessary.
Those advantages can be looked at relatively within their sex categorisations though, and a decision made. In this example, the lady is biologically a dude and has advantages comensurate with the other group, because she shares the same basic biology.
Edit: and the natural advantage in this case, is that she is a biological bloke.
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Not really, as you ignored the 'within the boundaries of your sex' element of the post.
If people truly believe there are zero differences between the sexes and someone born male has no advantages over someone born female then just get rid of the categories. Funnily enough you'll just see one sex dominate sports.
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Make everyone equal and let them use PEDs