Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[sidimmu]

Until the tests are published then this is pure speculation.

The Russians are well known for their independent and accurate testing in sports...

I guess the better question then is, given the concerns and worries from other bodies and competitors.
What verification has the IOC undertaken on this competitor to ensure their eligibility?
For these athletes with the need for further scrutiny, is it just a passport check? That's pathetic.

 

[hurfdurf]

I don’t think anyone wants to see women beaten up by a man but the evidence that is the case here is scant to say the least.

Considering how much men beat up women every day I don’t think someone needs to go to this extent just to do something that occurs daily in most streets in the UK.

 

[One More Solo]

I guess the better question then is, given the concerns and worries from other bodies and competitors.
What verification has the IOC undertaken on this competitor to ensure their eligibility?
For these athletes with the need for further scrutiny, is it just a passport check? That's pathetic.

Did anyone raise concerns prior to an arbitrary decision being taken by one person at a disgraced governing body? Hint: no.

The IOC has determined she has met their gender eligibility criteria for this games. There is, so far, no evidence in the public domain that should not be the case. It’s more than likely there are things going on behind the scenes but that is between her and the IOC until that process concludes. And, even if it does, people have made up their minds already.

In the meantime this has all the hallmarks of Russia seeking to fuel the culture war and create division from its place as an international pariah.

 

[dlockers]

The IOC has determined she has met their gender eligibility criteria for this games.

The IOC are using outdated rules before this latest craze of gender ideology came into force, because of the IBA dramas. The rules basically put it back onto the experts or use a passport.

 

[sidimmu]

Did anyone raise concerns prior to an arbitrary decision being taken by one person at a disgraced governing body? Hint: no.

We dont know that, could be plenty of people in their home country raising the alarm and being silenced for a potential olympic champ.

The IOC has determined she has met their gender eligibility criteria for this games. There is, so far, no evidence in the public domain that should not be the case. It’s more than likely there are things going on behind the scenes but that is between her and the IOC until that process concludes. And, even if it does, people have made up their minds already.

And the IBA have undertaken an actual test of some sort, yes not shown the results, but chose to ban the person in question, that person then removed their appeal.
Mainly because they were going pro, so be interesting when they get involved with a proper boxing org, how they handle it.

IOC have chosen to release no information about their tests, so at that point its as questionable as the IBA's test.

In the meantime this has all the hallmarks of Russia seeking to fuel the culture war and create division from its place as an international pariah.

okay mate.

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

Considering how much men beat up women every day I don’t think someone needs to go to this extent just to do something that occurs daily in most streets in the UK.

of coarse but there's also women that beat up men.



why cant Olympics incorporate trans into the tournament, so you have male female and trans events??

 

[One More Solo]

We dont know that, could be plenty of people in their home country raising the alarm and being silenced for a potential olympic champ.


And the IBA have undertaken an actual test of some sort, yes not shown the results, but chose to ban the person in question, that person then removed their appeal.
Mainly because they were going pro, so be interesting when they get involved with a proper boxing org, how they handle it.

IOC have chosen to release no information about their tests, so at that point its as questionable as the IBA's test.


okay mate.

We clearly disagree on the current situation and that’s ok. I just want an actual process to take place here involving an independent and credible arbitrator. This is just trial by social media and a possible outcome here is the hounding out of sport of an actual biological woman by so-called campaigners for women. It’s a farce all round.

 

[Fubsy]

of coarse but there's also women that beat up men.



why cant Olympics incorporate trans into the tournament, so you have male female and trans events??

Because the ideology (these days) says they have changed their biological sex. Any challenge to that and you cries of bigotry and trans genocide.

Trans isn't the issue in these cases though. This is DSD. The IOC have given no assurances that there is no sex based advantages for these competitors and are just being cowards, dancing around the subject because of the toxicity around gender ideology.

 

[sidimmu]

I just want an actual process to take place here involving an independent and credible arbitrator.

I do agree.

This is just trial by social media and a possible outcome here is the hounding out of sport of an actual biological woman by so-called campaigners for women.

I hope its not that simple, but something tells me it wont be.

of coarse but there's also women that beat up men.

Not in a competition format though.
Between two willing competitors of opposite sexes, male has advantage every time.

 

[dowie]

Did anyone raise concerns prior to an arbitrary decision being taken by one person at a disgraced governing body? Hint: no.

Hint - yes.

International Olympic Committee Was Warned About Male Boxers, World Boxing Organization Vice President Says - Reduxx

A Hungarian sports official has come out and stated that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is not female. István Kovács, the European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization and former Secretary General of the International Boxing Association, told Hungarian press that he had warned the...

reduxx.info

István Kovács, the European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization and former Secretary General of the International Boxing Association, told Hungarian press that he had warned the International Olympic Committee about males participating in women’s boxing as early as 2022, but that nothing was done.

And FML it's hardly "arbitrary" to state that laboratory tests confirm they're male, it's an evidence-based decision. Males shouldn't be competing in the female event, especially in boxing!

There isn't just a fairness issue there but also a basic safety issue too. Also, I don't doubt Russia might like to milk these situations but these were tests carried out by two labs and the competitors didn't pursue it (one initially did but then dropped the case) at the CAS.

The IOC has determined she has met their gender eligibility criteria for this games.

Note you don't say what that criteria is because it's comically inept of them - the "gender criteria" in this case is simply; what does it say in their passport?

So a male born with a DSD condition gives them male advantages, whereby externally their private parts appear female or ambiguous looking, gets recorded as female on a birth certificate (either by mistake or because it's decided that's what's best for their condition) ends up being officially "female".

The darker side of this is that in some countries, because of the ineptness of international sporting bodies at handling this stuff, these sorts of people may well be encouraged to compete because of their advantages as males - they may only need someone at a male gifted amateur level to have a shot at female Olympic level events.

 

[scarps]

As evidenced above with chromosome tests, they are not a biological female, therefore, they should not be competing with females.
Its pretty bloody simple.

Surely she was tested before or during the Tokyo Olympics or at least one time between 2018 and 2022.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Surely she was tested before or during the Tokyo Olympics or at least one time between 2018 and 2022.

The rules have probably changed, so many governing bodies have updated the thier rules in the last 4 years, swimming, cycling, rugby, athletics. The IBA changed their rules too applied them, chaotically, and then were stripped of goiverning status and was replaced by the IOC who have inclusion rules rather than eligibility rules for all intents and purposes.

 

[Werewolf]

The rules have probably changed, so many governing bodies have updated the thier rules in the last 4 years, swimming, cycling, rugby, athletics. The IBA changed their rules too applied them, chaotically, and then were stripped of goiverning status and was replaced by the IOC who have inclusion rules rather than eligibility rules for all intents and purposes.

From what I understand the IBA were already on a warning for their governance (failing to meet the standards for how they did it), then changed the rules without and consultation with athletes, outsiders or even any discussion at the board level, it was basically one person decided that the boxer didn't meet the rules, then rewrote the rules to cover that and didn't publish anything about the test that they said proved it...

In something like a sports governing body you cannot unilaterally change the rules, and apply them without discussion, or at the very least publishing what the rules are and the testing mechanism so that the people you've decided no longer qualify can actually see why they're not qualified now or argue their case.

As I understand it every other major sporting body in the world, certainly those that enforce the regulations for Olympics eligibility have all their rules, tests and procedures laid out and have processes that allow athletes to dispute if they want, including little things like actually telling the athlete and the athletes representatives and medical people why they've failed a test and what the testing method is.

Basically if the IBA had actually published what the changes were, and could show some kind of reasoning and discussion about it I suspect they might not have had their status as the regulating body removed.

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

the sad thing about todays world is you cant debate subjects like this without fear of being jumped on and closed down.

I do agree.

I hope its not that simple, but something tells me it wont be.


Not in a competition format though.
Between two willing competitors of opposite sexes, male has advantage every time.

of coarse.that i agree on, i was framing it, as the post generalised men beat up women. myself brought up to never hit a woman under any circumstances. even though my ex wife use to hit **** outta me due to her insecurities

 

[VincentHanna]

We dont know that, could be plenty of people in their home country raising the alarm and being silenced for a potential olympic champ.

You might want to check Algerias laws and general sentiment towards trans people before you make that claim

 

[C Kent]

It's been brought up numerous times (and generally ignored), but if 2 athletes in question are female, why did neither go through CAS to dispute the IBA's verdict?

 

[GGizmo]

I think in order for testosterone to be a reason to ban someone it should be proven they cheated. Someone shouldn't be banned purely for having abnormal levels.

Normal levels are determined by the average across the populations life. It doesn't determine what is normal for an individual.

But the chromosome test I think should be the gold standard for determining gender. As that is a dominant controller of genetics.

 

[dowie]

Basically if the IBA had actually published what the changes were, and could show some kind of reasoning and discussion about it I suspect they might not have had their status as the regulating body removed.

The IBA and IOC spat had nothing to do with rules re: DSD athletes taking part or any lack of clarity on what those rules were.

You might want to check Algerias laws and general sentiment towards trans people before you make that claim

This is a DSD issue, you could argue that this individual is "trans" but it's not what is usually referred to as "trans"; a DSD person born in an underdeveloped male body, assigned "female" at birth and who still identifies as "female" socially is a different situation to someone who is born into a normal male body and later chooses to "transition" to female. In the latter case, that's where you might cite conservative laws of some Islamic countries but in the former case, it's not relevant.

You could argue that in both cases they're "trans" - in so far as they're biological men living as women but even Islamic countries need to deal with "intersex" or DSD people and they're dealt with at birth (or perhaps just go under the radar at birth even) ergo if they stay as they're "assigned at birth" there isn't any need to transition or get any change of gender or legal sex recognized ergo further legislation isn't needed.

So Algeria's laws/sentiment toward trans people are irrelevant as, in order to compete under IOC rules, this person clearly already has official documentation saying they're female - which indicates they've been legally recognised as female since birth in Algeria (even though they're biologically male).

 

[Moley]

I think in order for testosterone to be a reason to ban someone it should be proven they cheated. Someone shouldn't be banned purely for having abnormal levels.

Normal levels are determined by the average across the populations life. It doesn't determine what is normal for an individual.

It’s an interesting suggestion, however ordinary female testosterone levels and ordinary male testosterone levels are vastly different once the age of ten - with no crossover.

A healthy female 18 year olds test will be in the range 15-38 ng/dL.

A healthy male 18 year olds test will be in the range 100-970 ng/dL.

If a ‘woman’ has test in the male range, then they are 99.9% likely to either be cheating or actually male.

The IoC told Caster Semenya that he would have to reduce his test down to levels that would drastically reduce his competitiveness but would still have been greater than that of an ordinary female.

 

[StriderX]

It’s an interesting suggestion, however ordinary female testosterone levels and ordinary male testosterone levels are vastly different once the age of ten - with no crossover.

A healthy female 18 year olds test will be in the range 15-38 ng/dL.

A healthy male 18 year olds test will be in the range 100-970 ng/dL.

If a ‘woman’ has test in the male range, then they are 99.9% likely to either be cheating or actually male.

The IoC told Caster Semenya that he would have to reduce his test down to levels that would drastically reduce his competitiveness but would still have been greater than that of an ordinary female.

So a person born a woman must be chemically forced into line but men who very likely dope with the help of their coaches to evade detection are completely and utterly alright? That's just ******* evil.

Additionally you're opening the door for countries to spew nonsense whenever a woman is 'too good' by lying about their eligibility whenever they win against one of their own which I think is very likely to be the case here. The only reason they can't do this with men is because it's alright for men to be completely and utterly abnormal genetic freaks, not women though that's not allowed.