Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[h4rm0ny]

yes I know he is

he's saying they should only be alowed to compete as thier birth gender.

So a trans man would under his rules be competing against women despite medically having the testosterone level of a man

I'm not sure you're using the same terms as everyone else. A male to female transsexual competing against women would not be competing as their birth gender. It doesn't go the other way around because performance doesn't go the other way around. A female to male transsexual competing against other women would be effectively doping because of all the hormone / testosterone boosting. This has been explained thrice now, by myself and by Dowie and by Roar87. This is the fourth making the same point to you.

but based on how uptight everyone is about anyone having an advantage i guess we need to racially segregate sports too then?

No. For a couple of reasons apparent to everyone else but you, I think. Firstly and most importantly, the gap between races is small. Kenyans might run a bit faster than Europeans on average, Caucasians may swim better than Nigerians on average (different bone density), but the gap is nowhere near as significant as that between men and women. Meaningful competition can take place. Secondly, that would be massively divisive and racially incendiary and you know it. Thirdly, mixed race is a common thing and on the same principle, there are no clear racial divisions you can rely on even where not mixed race. There are innumerable "races". The idea of different competitions for each of the hundreds is absurd and you know it.

You're trying a trite and very obvious argumentative trick - overly simplifying something and applying it to another scenario with significantly different factors. You seem to presume you are debating with idiots. It is, or should be, beneath you.

 

[D.P.]

this line of argument is a bit silly, we don't segregate based on length of legs, we segregate based on gender

But gender is not well defined when it comes to sports.

 

[dowie]

But gender is not well defined when it comes to sports.

well not any more, it could be but then it gets back to the whole sex testing thing that was quite controversial

the compromise is hormone levels and getting people to suppress them - though this then got overturned and caused the farce in the 800m at the last olympics, it also doesn't deal with the muscular skeletal advantages that say trans woman has when competing in say volleyball or MMA

 

[h4rm0ny]

But gender is not well defined when it comes to sports.

You know, it really is. Example, Semenya has testicles. I'm pretty sure the volleyball player earlier has testicles and penis. Both of these are men. They may not want to be. We may refer to them as "she" out of courtesy and we may be alright with them dressing or behaving as women if that's what they want. But they are men.

 

[SpeedFreak]

I guess this comes down to what we want from and for female sport. I am of the view that as a classification, women's sports should be a protected, with a clear definition supported by medical science. At the same time, any female (or one of the numerous other genders) good enough, should be free to compete against men. Female and non female categories if you wish.

I am unfortunate in that I am be under 6 feet and do not have a ridiculous abundance of fast twitch fibres. I am therefore not suited to becoming an elite sprinter. Castor Semenya is unfortunate in that she wants to be a professional female athlete in an industry that has binary definitions. I wish for her that there was a lucrative intergender classification, but this is practically impossible. Its is incredibly unfair on females who do not have the benefit of naturally elevated testosterone levels via internal testes. Athletes like Lyndsey Sharp have called this out and have been heavily criticised, but when you compete as an athlete for a living and the game is rigged, how exactly are you supposed to feel? They are all victims in one way or another and there are no winners, regarless of what the IOC or IAAF do.

 

[Angilion]

So basically Men vs Woman? But with a lot of scientific study and faffing around. To just then put the extremely rare unisex athletes competing with men?

I get where you are coming from but that is just what the outcome will be.

You might get rare instances where women, like Serena possibly, who is more muscly than the average woman (I have no idea of her testosterone levels but it wouldn't surprise me if they were higher than average for a woman) being grouped as a highest percentile woman against the lowest percentile men...

If she started losing all these games she would be the first to moan...

Also this kind of testing doesn't lend itself well to knock out style tournaments. Who would Serena go and play if she won her first round? Go further into the men's bracket?

The difference is much too large for that. Even she probably wouldn't be ranked at all in an open contest and probably wouldn't win any match in any tournament. She got spanked by a guy who never made the top 200, didn't play seriously, "prepared" for the match by having a few beers beforehand and played twice as many sets as she did because he played Venus first (and spanked her too). The best female tennis player could beat almost all men at tennis, but not any ranked male tennis players. The difference at the top is too much.

There was a highly publicised "man vs woman" tennis match in which the woman won. What wasn't so publicised was that while the man had been the USA champion, that was over 30 years earlier. He'd retired over 20 years earlier and hadn't played competitively since. He was close to pension age and played both the number 1 and number 2 ranked women in the world at the height of their game. He beat one of them by a landslide and then the other beat him. There are claims that he threw the match, since he gambled a lot on his own matches and the odds on her winning were pretty high. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. She was a very skilled player and had studied his match against the other woman to analyze his current weaknesses and played specifically against them (he was slower and less fit due to being much older and out of training for decades, so she hung back and forced a long game played all round the court).

 

[FoxEye]

Would it be so hard to just say that, if you were born with testes or a penis you can never compete in women's sport. And that's just one disqualifier. So if you have correct genitals but say male testosterone levels, that's another disqualifier.

Both of those sound good to me.

It might be "unfair" to trans people, who can't compete as men or as women. Either they need their own transgender categories/competitions or, sadly, they have to miss out.

We can't ruin women's sport for the majority, in order to make a tiny minority happy. Needs of the many, etc.

Anything else other than complete disqualification for transgender "women" really does have the effect of ruining women's sport for everyone. And only the most PC would see that as a positive outcome. Everybody else thinks it's madness.

 

[dowie]

well the most.likely thing to happen in the medium term is the IAAF goes back to court and finally gets a ruling that says we can go back to the suppression of hormones for these intersex athletes

at the moment though Semenya is free to compete with her male testes and male levels of testosterone - essentially competing as a man in women's sport albeit with genitalia that didn't form properly at birth

at the Olympics I think people thought she was holding back a bit, that despite winning she could have done so much better - though of course it was a big improvement compared to when she had to suppress her testosterone levels

interestingly at the upcoming events in London she's entered for both the 1500m and the 800m - I wonder if this is the time where should will put in maximum effort and set a record in the 800m (and perhaps try to get a medal in the 1500m too) - perhaps she knows the window is likely going to close in the near future and if/when suppression of testosterone is enforced again she'll not be winning anything. Will be interesting to see in the next few days - maybe London will be one of her last chances to perform at the highest level.

 

[TallPaul1878]

Would it be so hard to just say that, if you were born with testes or a penis you can never compete in women's sport. And that's just one disqualifier. So if you have correct genitals but say male testosterone levels, that's another disqualifier.

Both of those sound good to me.

It might be "unfair" to trans people, who can't compete as men or as women. Either they need their own transgender categories/competitions or, sadly, they have to miss out.

We can't ruin women's sport for the majority, in order to make a tiny minority happy. Needs of the many, etc.

Anything else other than complete disqualification for transgender "women" really does have the effect of ruining women's sport for everyone. And only the most PC would see that as a positive outcome. Everybody else thinks it's madness.

A tiny minority that is NEVER happy. I might add.

 

[SpeedFreak]

The difference is much too large for that. Even she probably wouldn't be ranked at all in an open contest and probably wouldn't win any match in any tournament. She got spanked by a guy who never made the top 200, didn't play seriously, "prepared" for the match by having a few beers beforehand and played twice as many sets as she did because he played Venus first (and spanked her too).

In fairness, he was previously inside the top 50, there was no truth to him drinking before the game and Serena and Venus were teenagers when the game was player. Serena at 30 >>>> Serena at 16.

 

[Vonhelmet]

In fairness, he was previously inside the top 50, there was no truth to him drinking before the game and Serena and Venus were teenagers when the game was player. Serena at 30 >>>> Serena at 16.

She'd still lose if you re-ran the exercise today.

 

[edscdk]

woman lack nuts to super charge them... Have nuts compete against men...

 

[h4rm0ny]

well the most.likely thing to happen in the medium term is the IAAF goes back to court and finally gets a ruling that says we can go back to the suppression of hormones for these intersex athletes

Might well be what they settle on, but a bad approach, imo. This whole thing came about because some people objected to sex testing. They objected, I suspect, because they disliked the idea of society imposing its definitions of sex on individuals. In my opinion and were I in charge, they'd just have to accept that. We shouldn't abolish women's competitive sport because some people don't like being categorised as men or women.

 

[dowie]

Might well be what they settle on, but a bad approach, imo. This whole thing came about because some people objected to sex testing. They objected, I suspect, because they disliked the idea of society imposing its definitions of sex on individuals. In my opinion and were I in charge, they'd just have to accept that. We shouldn't abolish women's competitive sport because some people don't like being categorised as men or women.

yup, I said medium term as I do wonder if in the long term we'll come full circle... for example as trans people become more acceptable we'll probably have more people transitioning at an earlier age, greater participation of trans people in sports etc.. we could then have a situation where the muscular skeletal advantages of trans people cause some sports to become farcical - perhaps women's boxing, wrestling, MMA etc.. maybe basketball with the height advantage etc.. you might well find in 30 years time, with no change in rules, that trans people end up disproportionately represented in women's sport - that is when there could be pressure for further change

 

[Vonhelmet]

woman lack nuts to super charge them... Have nuts compete against men...

So what you're saying is they need to eat a snickers before they compete?

 

[Nasher]

woman lack nuts to super charge them... Have nuts compete against men...

 

[ubersonic]

Bit unfortunate that the CAS made such a stupid ruling in the first place leading to the utter farce that was the 800m final in Rio...

In fairness the Rio olympics were a total farce from the get go due to the decision to ban dozens of athletes who have never failed a drug test in their life from competing just because of allegations against their countries sporting association or what'snot. As a result we now have loads of silver/bronze medalists walking around with gold they know they don't deserve (must suck for them from a personal pov tbh) I think it's best just to pretend there was no Olympics in 2016 at this point lol.

 

[Washout]

In fairness the Rio olympics were a total farce from the get go due to the decision to ban dozens of athletes who have never failed a drug test in their life from competing just because of allegations against their countries sporting association or what'snot. As a result we now have loads of silver/bronze medalists walking around with gold they know they don't deserve (must suck for them from a personal pov tbh) I think it's best just to pretend there was no Olympics in 2016 at this point lol.

What about all the silver/bronze medalists that are walking about now that SHOULD have had gold/silver from the past who knows how many Olympics? All due to institutionalised cheating on a huge scale by their country.
They've rectified a few, but how many slipped through?

Edit: and it wasn't just allegations. It was proven.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

She'd still lose if you re-ran the exercise today.

Yep.

Also I think it'd be interesting to let female to male trans compete against men.

Let them go on TRT and maintain natural average test levels of a man and let them go to town.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I am unfortunate in that I am be under 6 feet and do not have a ridiculous abundance of fast twitch fibres. I am therefore not suited to becoming an elite sprinter.

Not true if you check the 100m sprint records a number of them, where held by people under 6ft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres#All-time_top_25_men

Edit: just to add. Shorter legs help with acceleration in the early phase of the race, longer legs help with top speed.