DirectX 12

[Cambofrog]

I just don't get what makes you think dx12 will favor Nvidia. No version of dx has ever favored Nvidia or Amd apart from dx10.1 which favored amd due to Nvidia not having support. It's up to Nvidia and Amd to build the hardware and usually whoever builds the fastest hardware has the fastest card over most games. As the new dx is designed for Xboxone as well would it not make more sense that dx12 will suit AMD Gcn architecture better.

I think it will work just as well on each brand as it always has.

I Don't know if DX 12 will favor Nvidia or not.
MS will have been developing DX 12 for some time, and discussing it with the major hardware vendors at the driver level.

I just don't understand why the hell AMD came up with Mantle.
I'm just speculating on a possible reason.

 

[TheRealDeal]

I Don't know if DX 12 will favor Nvidia or not.
MS will have been developing DX 12 for some time, and discussing it with the major hardware vendors at the driver level.

I just don't understand why the hell why AMD came up with Mantle.
I'm just speculating on a possible reason.

Amd have already said they started on Mantle for this exact reason. To either get Microsoft to step up and do something or have Mantle be the industry standard. I don't think Microsoft have been working to long on dx12 if you ask me as the first game is almost 2 years away. Amd started work around 2 years ago and already have 2 games that use it. For all we know Microsoft took note last year when Amd first mentioned Mantle.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amd-demonstrates-full-support-for-new-directx-12-at-game-developer-conference-2014-03-20?reflink=MW_news_stmp

AMD Demonstrates Full Support for New DirectX 12 at Game Developer Conference
Full DirectX 12 Compatibility Promised for the Award-Winning Graphics Core Next Architecture

SUNNYVALE, CA, Mar 20, 2014 (Marketwired via COMTEX) -- Today, AMD AMD +0.25% announced support for Microsoft(R) and its revamped graphics application programming interface, DirectX(R) 12, a new "console-like" version of the graphics API that has inspired PC gaming for nearly two decades. During the Microsoft(R)-sponsored panel, DirectX: Evolving Microsoft's Graphics Platform, AMD revealed that it will support DirectX(R) 12 on all AMD Radeon(TM) GPUs that feature the Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture.

AMD will support and collaborate with Microsoft(R) on the development of the generational advancement of the API, to continue to improve the experience for both developers and end users.

"AMD strongly believes in the benefits gamers and game developers can realize from lower-overhead API development," said Matt Skynner, corporate vice president and general manager, Graphics Business Unit, AMD. "With the Mantle API, AMD has shown the world our commitment to incredible performance, and we look forward to enabling the same performance gains by supporting the industry-standard DirectX(R) 12."

DirectX(R) 12 will offer tantalizing opportunities for game developers to extract new performance from PC graphics cards with a newly-streamlined language that reduces API overhead. DirectX(R) 12 will be the first generational leap for the platform since DirectX(R) 11 made its debut in 2008.

"AMD has always been an essential partner in the development of DirectX(R)," said Anuj Gosalia, Development Manager, Windows Graphics, Microsoft(R). "As we start the next chapter for our historic API, we look forward to continued great collaboration with AMD to bring gamers the best possible performance on AMD hardware."

A DirectX(R) 12 support schedule for AMD Radeon(TM) GPUs will be published at a later date.

 

[Boomstick777]

Like I said earlier, I'm wondering if general DX 12 API favors Nvidia hardware over AMD?

Yeah, no I doubt that very much. It will benefit AMD and Nvidia in the same way. Both will gain performance, closer to the metal and reduce CPU overhead. Which ever runs faster GPU wise will still be down to the hardware AMD / Nvidia when it comes to direct comparisons in like for like system with only different GPU.

Looks like Mantle could well co-exist with DX12 so if AMD don't have the hardware edge they may be able to optimize Mantle to give more fps than DX12.

All this competition is great though. AMD deserve some kind of medal for kicking MS up the butt imho.

 

[Cambofrog]

Amd have already said they started on Mantle for this exact reason. To either get Microsoft to step up and do something or have Mantle be the industry standard. I don't think Microsoft have been working to long on dx12 if you ask me as the first game is almost 2 years away. Amd started work around 2 years ago and already have 2 games that use it. For all we know Microsoft took note last year when Amd first mentioned Mantle.

Oh, absolutely, Mantle is a good thing, even if it's just to get MS off its arse regarding DX.
I think Dx 12 has probably been in development for some time now. It's a slow process where MS has to come to an "agreement" with several hardware manufacturers.

It's not as simple as a single hardware manufacturer writing an API to support (some of) its own hardware.

DX 12 support will be OK for older hardware, through feature levels.
I doesn't need to be 2 years away to be adopted by programmers.

I think if MS tie DX 12 to a new OS, they have really ****ed up this time.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Oh, absolutely, Mantle is a good thing, even if it's just to get MS off its arse regarding DX.
I think Dx 12 has probably been in development for some time now. It's a slow process where MS has to come to an "agreement" with several hardware manufacturers.

It's not as simple as a single hardware manufacturer writing an API to support (some of) its own hardware.

DX 12 will support will be OK for older hardware, through feature levels.
I doesn't need to be 2 years away to be adopted by programmers.

I think if MS tie DX 12 to a new OS, they have really ****ed up time.

It might not go down to bad with a new operating system as its still around 2 years until a game arrives. Maybe by this time people will be open to a change.

Both Amd and Nvidia seem pretty happy with what Microsoft are proposing so i just hope when it arrives it's a good step forward.

 

[Cambofrog]

It might not go down to bad with a new operating system as its still around 2 years until a game arrives. Maybe by this time people will be open to a change.

Both Amd and Nvidia seem pretty happy with what Microsoft are proposing so i just hope when it arrives it's a good step forward.

I don't think there's A problem with a new OS in itself, just the adoption of DX 12 regarding time delay/cost, especially if MS wants to beat off the "Mantle Attack"

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Amd have already said they started on Mantle for this exact reason. To either get Microsoft to step up and do something or have Mantle be the industry standard. I don't think Microsoft have been working to long on dx12 if you ask me as the first game is almost 2 years away. Amd started work around 2 years ago and already have 2 games that use it. For all we know Microsoft took note last year when Amd first mentioned Mantle.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amd-demonstrates-full-support-for-new-directx-12-at-game-developer-conference-2014-03-20?reflink=MW_news_stmp

That kind of clears it up then. I thought it would be weird especially as the XBox One uses an AMD GPU.

Anyway,all this is a moot point.

By the time DX12 comes along will older hardware be good enough to run DX12 games??

Will companies push improved performance or more wizz-bang effects??

 

[jh30uk]

Since DX11 is more efficient and faster then I would say yes for DX12.

Obv you are not going to get Crysis 4 or 5 running at even 1080p (and I mean MAX inc full AA) on a Nvidia 400 series.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I just saw this article:

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2014...x-12-will-improve-xbox-one-games-wont-require

But with DirectX 12, four major chipmakers — Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Qualcomm — announced that the new APIs would run on their existing chips.

That is HUGE if Qualcomm is coming onboard.

It means ARM chips running DX12 capable IGPs. I wonder if this means Windows RT is not as dead as we are thinking??

 

[jh30uk]

Which hardware will be DX12-compatible? AMD said all of its Graphics Core Next-based Radeon GPUs (i.e. Radeon HD 7000 series and newer) will work with the new API

http://techreport.com/news/26199/di...xisting-hardware-first-games-due-in-late-2015

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Since DX11 is more efficient and faster then I would say yes for DX12.

Obv you are not going to get Crysis 4 or 5 running at even 1080p (and I mean MAX inc full AA) on a Nvidia 400 series.

The thing is though,whether the full subset of DX12 features will be supported by the older GPUs. The new GPUs support features the older ones do not,so it makes me wonder if DX12 involves many tiers of feature support.

After all the demo was done using the latest high end Nvidia GPU.

 

[jh30uk]

I am sure by the wording it will be supported fully by Nvidia on all GPU's from certain 400 series upwards.

I think there are some very low end 400 series that may even be refreshed older GPU's but the GTX 480 George Foreman edition will support it.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I am sure by the wording it will be supported fully by Nvidia on all GPU's from certain 400 series upwards.

I think there are some very low end 400 series that may even be refreshed older GPU's but the GTX 480 George Foreman edition will support it.

The problem,is the newer Nvidia GPUs support features the old ones do not,and so do the AMD GCN based GPUs.

So unless MS is ignoring the hardware features for DX11.1 and DX11.2, I get the feeling we will see some added features supported by newer cards,or even relatively better performance due to them.

The same happened with DX9. Many cards supported DX9 but not all supported DX9c,as you needed the hardware to do so. A 7900GTX supported DX9 and so did a FX5900. However,did not support DX9c. The ATI X800 supported DX9b but the 6800 series supported DX9c.

There were multiple versions of DX7 and DX8 too.

 

[Gregster]

Sooooooooooooooooo, Is DX12 Mantle? From my quick scouring, no but I am happy to be corrected.

 

[jh30uk]

Sorry to tell you mate but mantle's just not what AMD said it would be, esp. for peeps who buy a affordable £200ish decent CPU and clock it paired with a high end GPU.

It will help someone who pairs a 2.0GHZ Celeron with a high end GPU, but who would do that?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Sooooooooooooooooo, Is DX12 Mantle? From my quick scouring, no but I am happy to be corrected.

I don't think so,but with all these APIs its hard to say!!

Another one was previewed recently:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...otorealistic-game-engine-into-the-cloudt.aspx

Its called Brigand Engine and is meant to be used in the new Amazon console.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Sorry to tell you mate but mantle's just not what AMD said it would be, esp. for peeps who buy a affordable £200ish decent CPU and clock it paired with a high end GPU.

It will help someone who pairs a 2.0GHZ Celeron with a high end GPU, but who would do that?

TH tests Thief with Mantle:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thief-mantle-benchmarks,3773.html

An FX4170 just about matches a Core i7 4770K!

 

[Gregster]

I don't think so,but with all these APIs its hard to say!!

Another one was previewed recently:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...otorealistic-game-engine-into-the-cloudt.aspx

Its called Brigand Engine and is meant to be used in the new Amazon console IIRC.

I was reading about that earlier and they kept making reference to Amazon (of which I had no idea they were making a console), so skipped it. I will have a good read tomorrow and the same with DX.

Great news that older GPU's are supported and definitely a rosy future for PC gamers.

 

[jh30uk]

@ CAT-THE-FIFTH, That is exactly what it does, helps a poorer/weaker CPU, not much good to many here with high end i7's and now DX12 will do similar.

I have seen enough of those mantle slides to last a lifetime BTW, and reason I never enter any primary mantle threads.

Also you keep asking about the "full" DX12 support from Nvidia which they have said yes to.

You mention the past, well they did actually show DX10.1 running on the cards Shaders in Assassins creed on a 200 series GPU but they did not officially support it in the way MS needed it to be to get certed as you know they were too late.

MS had the DX10 certification tied down really tight, do not think its going to be like that again as DX10 was pretty poorly took up.

Now this was the 200 series which magically when refreshed to the 300 series for OEM use fully supported DX10.1.

So it was obvious the hardware did fully support DX10.1 but once it was out there it couldn't be enabled by software (firmware or driver) and had to be done when getting manufactured so possibly a laser cut or lack of laser cut was all it took.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

@ CAT-THE-FIFTH, That is exactly what it does, helps a poorer/weaker CPU, not much good to many here with high end i7's and now DX12 will do similar.

I have seen enough of those mantle slides to last a lifetime BTW, and reason I neve renter any primary mantle threads.

You do realise hardware enthusiasts on forums are a small but vocal minority of gamers,so things like Mantle and DX12 and more important for the rest of us. I am unlikely to buy a £200 CPU myself or a £500 GPU.

In fact I know only two people who would spend that sort of money on a CPU for gaming and that is out of like 20+ PC gamers I know.

The GPUs used were a R7 250X and a R9 270. That is with a £70 GPU and a £130 GPU,and that is a decent performance boost.

UE3 only uses 4 threads,and AFAIK(could be wrong here) loads the first two threads more.

The game is more CPU bottlenecked even with a lower end GPU and its essentially removed that with a lower end GPU but with Mantle activated.

So with a budget CPU and a budget GPU you already see a noticeable improvement.

That is a big deal for like 95% of all gamers. If DX12 does the same its even a bigger deal.

I will probably replace my GTX660 by late 2015,but it certainly might do well in a second PC,and I could plonk a cheap CPU in it.

Heck who knows my lowly Xeon E3 1220 might last longer than I expect!! I hope!!

My mates with FX6300 series CPUs and Core i3s might see a decent extension of their CPU lifespan.

Instead of a CPU upgrade,just plonk in a new GPU.

In fact I am rather excited by the prospects of DX12 when I come to think of it now!!

Its far easier to plonk in a new graphics card than upgrade the CPU or have to buy a new platform.