DirectX 12

[humbug]

I have endured thread after thread of Mantle and how cool it is and how closed it is and how nVidia are in trouble blah blah blah. A snippet of a rumour that nVidia are tucked up with Microsoft and yer, I am chuffed to bits with it.

You shouldn't take it so personally, brand loyalties are idiotic, its exactly that which 'yes Nvidia' depend on.

Your happy that Nvidia and M$ are working together on industry wide brand lockouts.

I'm not happy, i would have been happy if AMD and Nvidia had got together to quash the M$ monopoly.

You win, Congratulations.

Self Destruction.

 

[Gregster]

It would seem you don't understand about dx and it holding the pc back for years. Why do you think everyone is raving about dx12 and low level. Could this have been done years ago. Without understanding the ins and out's it has been talked about for years since the original xbox arived that Microsoft were no longer interested in the PC. I don't know how long you have been into gaming but things with dx went down hill not to long after the xbox arrived. Dx9 was as good as it got. Theres still quit a lot of games that are developed on a very old platform.

You shouldn't take it so personally, brand loyalties are idiotic, its exactly that which 'yes Nvidia' depend on.

Your happy that Nvidia and M$ are working together on industry wide brand lockouts.

I'm not happy, i would have been happy if AMD and Nvidia had got together to quash the M$ monopoly.

You win, Congratulations.

Self Destruction.

Come off it fellas, I have been happy as there has been no other choice. Linux sure but realistically no. I have had port after port of games that have been poor due to lazy devs/whatever reason but the games have been good. There has been some good PC exclusives and they have all run just fine on DX. I spent years buying mid level equipment to game on PC and they all played the games just fine.

My point is DX could have given more but Microsoft didn't have any competition but now they have and hopefully will deliver. I can't wait for DX12 but for now, I will have to put up with DX11 and Humbug changes his mind more than I do my Y fronts and now nVidia in bed with Microsoft is bad but a couple of days ago, AMD were partners of Microsoft (from various tweets) but you didn't play up then.

Some double standards for sure here.

 

[StriderX]

You shouldn't take it so personally, brand loyalties are idiotic, its exactly that which 'yes Nvidia' depend on.

Your happy that Nvidia and M$ are working together on industry wide brand lockouts.

I'm not happy, i would have been happy if AMD and Nvidia had got together to quash the M$ monopoly.

You win, Congratulations.

Self Destruction.

Agreed, this still doesn't preclude Nvidia from slowly removing MS from the equation, after all Steam is still going to push gamers away regardless.

After some unknown time period, Nvidia will likely find it difficult to deal with MS when their brand image is in an entirely different camp.

 

[humbug]

Come off it fellas, I have been happy as there has been no other choice. Linux sure but realistically no. I have had port after port of games that have been poor due to lazy devs/whatever reason but the games have been good. There has been some good PC exclusives and they have all run just fine on DX. I spent years buying mid level equipment to game on PC and they all played the games just fine.

My point is DX could have given more but Microsoft didn't have any competition but now they have and hopefully will deliver. I can't wait for DX12 but for now, I will have to put up with DX11 and Humbug changes his mind more than I do my Y fronts and now nVidia in bed with Microsoft is bad but a couple of days ago, AMD were partners of Microsoft (from various tweets) but you didn't play up then.

Some double standards for sure here.

Nvidia are already making a lot of noise how their specific DX features will be so much better than AMD.

Its that fragmentation of DX and the PC Gaming industry as a whole which you so enthusiastically endorse.

Result is Nvidia for some games. AMD for others. we no longer have a choice.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Come off it fellas, I have been happy as there has been no other choice. Linux sure but realistically no. I have had port after port of games that have been poor due to lazy devs/whatever reason but the games have been good. There has been some good PC exclusives and they have all run just fine on DX. I spent years buying mid level equipment to game on PC and they all played the games just fine.

My point is DX could have given more but Microsoft didn't have any competition but now they have and hopefully will deliver. I can't wait for DX12 but for now, I will have to put up with DX11 and Humbug changes his mind more than I do my Y fronts and now nVidia in bed with Microsoft is bad but a couple of days ago, AMD were partners of Microsoft (from various tweets) but you didn't play up then.

Some double standards for sure here.

Sure they have not had much competition as Microsoft are not easy to go up against. Look at OpenGl and how they dealt with that. They are a huge company and smaller company's imo need guts to take on the machine. Microsoft makes Nvidia and Amd look like a burger van. Nvidia and Amd's world is shrinking because of Microsoft and other reasons. Give AMD some credit for trying to save PC gaming. Now that new consoles are out the pc really has not much going for it. The ps4 makes the average gaming pc including mine look pretty week. On overclocker's this is not the case off course but most people don't have pc's like this site as has been said a lot. It's not helped by Microsoft pulling back the pc's performance using dx. It's easy to see if you look for it. There's a good reason people want opengl and mantle to be the new masters.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

It does seem that when DX12 was thought to be Mantle it was fine for AMD to work with Microsoft and for Microsoft to release DX12. Now that it's possible DX12 isn't just Mantle by another name and Nvidia are in some way working with Microsoft it's all bad?

Lots of people hating on Microsoft, so I presume they're all Linux PC or Mac gamers then and don't use Windows (made by Microsoft btw) or DirectX (the source of all evil from what I can gather)?
Microsoft have been holding back PC gaming, but it's been doing great on the non-Microsoft OSes? Linux and Mac gaming way ahead then?

Could Microsoft have done DX12 before now? Yes quite possibly.
Could AMD have done Mantle before now? Yes quite possibly. So are AMD not equally responsible for holding back PC gaming until now? (As are Nvidia)
DX9 was a long time ago, so AMD/Nvidia have had a long time to do their own API before now if they wanted to move things forward so badly.

Have many games been announced for DX12 yet? No. Had many games been announced for Mantle 12 months ago (I'm sure someone/somewhere said DX12 has been in development for 1 year and Mantle for 2 years)? I can't remember many.
Doesn't mean they won't be. How long in advance of DX11 being released were games announced for it?

We don't know how Mantle is gonna turn out yet, let alone DX12. If DX12 is rubbish, considerably worse than Mantle or even if it's better than Mantle, developers don't have to use it. Maybe all the developers will agree that it's rubbish, Mantle is much better and they don't need Nvidia (or Intel) customers and just release the games for Mantle. Maybe they'll support DX11, DX12 and Mantle.

Unless they only support DX12 and DX12 is worse than DX11, how are we gonna be worse off? Surely more choice in APIs is a good thing as developers can use what they feel is best.

 

[humbug]

It does seem that when DX12 was thought to be Mantle it was fine for AMD to work with Microsoft and for Microsoft to release DX12. Now that it's possible DX12 isn't just Mantle by another name and Nvidia are in some way working with Microsoft it's all bad?

If one uses DX to lock the other out of performance / feature its bad for everyone, no matter who does it.

I don't want to be in a position when i have to buy AMD or Nvidia specifically to play a specific game.

No one wants that, or at least thats what i thought.

The idea was that if Mantle was in DX Nvidia would have had to take it up.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

I'm not happy, i would have been happy if AMD and Nvidia had got together to quash the M$ monopoly.

That was never going to happen, Microsoft has a market capitalisation of around 25x both AMD and Nvidia put together. If AMD and Nvidia had tried to come together to release an API which rivaled DirectX, then MSFT would have just poured vast sums of money into upgrading DX and crushing AMD/Nvidia's product.

 

[humbug]

That was never going to happen, Microsoft has a market capitalisation of around 25x both AMD and Nvidia put together. If AMD and Nvidia had tried to come together to release an API which rivaled DirectX, then MSFT would have just poured vast sums of money into upgrading DX and crushing AMD/Nvidia's product.

That doesn't make any sense, If AMD and Nvidia have thier own joint API then its upto Developers what they do with it, not Microsoft.

 

[Final8y]

That was never going to happen, Microsoft has a market capitalisation of around 25x both AMD and Nvidia put together. If AMD and Nvidia had tried to come together to release an API which rivaled DirectX, then MSFT would have just poured vast sums of money into upgrading DX and crushing AMD/Nvidia's product.

Which would still benefit AMD/NV and the gamers if DX became so much better than what AMD/NV came up with for low end and high end hardware .

 

[Gregster]

So much double standards on display. It is fine for AMD to have Mantle and the gloating going on was sickening and then all the claims of DX12 is Mantle but now it appears that nVidia are jumping into bed with Microsoft, this is fragmentation and bad and will need nVidia and AMD to play games... It is business as usual and we will all be getting good performance.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

That doesn't make any sense, If AMD and Nvidia have thier own joint API then its upto Developers what they do with it, not Microsoft.

You underestimate the ability of an extremely wealthy company to crush opposition products through marketing, lobbying etc. Many competitor companies to Apple, Microsoft and others have never had their products see light of day for these reasons.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

So much double standards on display. It is fine for AMD to have Mantle and the gloating going on was sickening and then all the claims of DX12 is Mantle but now it appears that nVidia are jumping into bed with Microsoft, this is fragmentation and bad and will need nVidia and AMD to play games... It is business as usual and we will all be getting good performance.

+1

 

[humbug]

You underestimate the ability of an extremely wealthy company to crush opposition products through marketing, lobbying etc. Many competitor companies to Apple, Microsoft and others have never had their products see light of day for these reasons.

Game developers already aren't convinced by Microsoft and DX, they haven't been for 10 years.

Its the game developers MS need to convince to stick with DX.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Game developers already aren't convinced by Microsoft and DX, they haven't been for 10 years.

Its the game developers MS need to convince to stick with DX.

If they've stuck with DX for this long, which they have as you stated, then Microsoft must be doing something right and I don't think developers are going to start mass migrating away from DirectX. Or do you have another agenda here and you want all developers to stop using DX and move to Mantle?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

If one uses DX to lock the other out of performance / feature its bad for everyone, no matter who does it.

I don't want to be in a position when i have to buy AMD or Nvidia specifically to play a specific game.

No one wants that, or at least thats what i thought.

The idea was that if Mantle was in DX Nvidia would have had to take it up.

The way I see it is that Mantle already fragmented the market. We still don't know that AMD would ever open it up to Nvidia. What a company says it will do and what it does are not always the same. Maybe AMD just didn't want Nvidia working on a rival product, so made it sound like Mantle would be an option.
We also don't know that even if Mantle does work with non-GCN architectures that it will work as well. Maybe some features would be locked out as they were GCN dependant. Which would mean just the situation you're complaining about with DirectX locking stuff out.
I don't think Nvidia should've 'forced' to take up Mantle regardless of the name.

That doesn't make any sense, If AMD and Nvidia have thier own joint API then its upto Developers what they do with it, not Microsoft.

Developers will still get to choose. If DX12 really doesn't work so well on AMD then they can use Mantle for AMD. I can't see many developers excluding a whole vendor from their game. We could be in a position where some games run better on cards from one vendor while other games run better on cards from the other vendor. Wouldn't that be stange and unfamiliar! /sarcasm

We also hear that this is being done for the XB1, some going as far as saying the PC DX12 is an afterthought. If this is the case is it really likely that Microsoft will do anything to harm the performance of the API on the hardware in their console?

 

[Gregster]

Game developers already aren't convinced by Microsoft and DX, they haven't been for 10 years.

Its the game developers MS need to convince to stick with DX.

You do know that most gamers use nVidia right? AMD have had to convince devs to use mantle.

 

[LtMatt]

You do know that most gamers use nVidia right? AMD have had to convince devs to use mantle.

Not sure about that. Crytek have jumped on board knowing full when that DX12 is coming. Crytek engine is used in a lot of games and is a big coup for Mantle.

 

[Gregster]

Not sure about that. Crytek have jumped on board knowing full when that DX12 is coming. Crytek engine is used in a lot of games and is a big coup for Mantle.

Great coup for AMD and Mantle has got some big names signed up but reading some of these AMD boys posts, you would think DX12/DX11 was the worst thing that could happen to gaming.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Not sure about that. Crytek have jumped on board knowing full when that DX12 is coming. Crytek engine is used in a lot of games and is a big coup for Mantle.

True, but as far as I know, Crytek have not stated exactly how involved they are going to get with Mantle. For now I am assuming that their primary focus will still be DX.