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DirectX 12

50% from a unreleased unfinished product isnt bad, and without knowing how and on what they tested it silly to compare your 130% unless you have tryed dx 12 and can do us a comparison?
Interesting the Link also mentions the drawcall change for both DX12 and mantle doesnt really affect them ,Hopefully this means there is other significant changes in DX12 that there looking forward to

Agreed, especially if that 50% gain in DirectX 12 is when the GPU is paired with a decent Intel CPU and not some weird combo where Mantle reduces overhead like an A6 6400K with a 290X :D.

A lot of hate for DX, but let's be honest we'll all be throwing the latest hardware at our games anyway, so anything on top that software can give is icing on the cake.
 
That's total share though, DX12 is a gaming API, nobody plays cutting edge games on an Intel HD2000.

Apu's and igp's performance will only increase, when DX12 lands those Intel/Apu solutions will be stronger/faster.

The high majority of PC games are playing on **** gpu power, MS aren't aiming DX12 solely at the high end/hardcore gamer, there's hardly any in the grand scheme of PC gaming.;)
 
The hype is dying down and that article seems to be saying DX12 will be a poor mans Mantle. If that is true then Mantle can still survive after DX12 has launched imo. Time will tell.

It would be surprising if DX12 gives performance increases similar to or greater than Mantle. I have said it many times on this forum - the reason why Mantle can give the performance gains it does is because it is specifically coded for the GCN architecture thereby reducing overhead by eliminating the need for extra "functions" which account for different hardware set-ups (i.e. Nvidia GPUs).

Considering that DirectX is an all-encompassing graphics API (ergo, it is coded as to give functionality to all different hardware set ups regardless of vendor/brand) it is pretty damn good at what it does - the performance across most games is acceptable (but not exceptionable, I admit) and there are very few serious issues with it.

To be quite honest, given the huge savings on overhead that Mantle should give due to it's specific architectural code I am surprised that it doesn't give larger performance increases than it does currently. Theoretically, there should be room for performance increases of up to 9x (over DX) due to this overhead decrease. But of course, I realise that it's early days yet for this new API and further performance improvements should happen as it is updated.

Anyway, I look forward to more news on DirectX 12 and if Microsoft (and developing partners) can provide performance increases near to Mantle (around 70%) then I would consider that a major achievement given the much more difficult job that they have with coding DX.
 
I am surprised that it doesn't give larger performance increases than it does currently. Theoretically, there should be room for performance increases of up to 9x (over DX) due to this overhead decrease.

Because no game has put the API in such a situation. Who would make a game that runs at 10fps on the greatest nVIDIA card and at 90fps on AMD?
 
To be quite honest, given the huge savings on overhead that Mantle should give due to it's specific architectural code I am surprised that it doesn't give larger performance increases than it does currently. Theoretically, there should be room for performance increases of up to 9x (over DX) due to this overhead decrease. But of course, I realise that it's early days yet for this new API and further performance improvements should happen as it is updated.

The figure comes from the comparison of inefficent use of batching and similiar techniques by developers under DX and the way that Mantle handles it better. Most developers however make atleast reasonable use of techniques to save on draw calls so you don't really see those headline performance differences in a well written game though you would in badly coded situations or situations where you plain just can't work around the drawcall limitations which tend to be mainly edge cases.
 
I am pretty sure it was said that DX12 was being released to Xbox one before PC. With this in mind i assume it was designed with Xbox one being the main platform for it. You can bet PC gaming is coming second to Xbox one as that's where the money is at. If it benefit's the PC in a good way who really cares but it would be foolish to think that Xbox is not in front of PC where DX12 is concerned.

It doesn't matter. They're built on the same source code for the same x86 architecture so your point is moot. Everyone wins.

Like Mantle was designed in conjunction with Xbox One a few months ago, so AMD users would reep benefits for next gen. Or at least that's what some of the die-hards wrongly believed. With DX12 it's more truth than myth. :)

I do love the many twists of the Pro Mantle brigade, a truly humorous read :D
 
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Right I have an actual moment to post again.

Those that think DX 12 is being made for PC; seriously you need to look at what's been provided; links about how terrible Xbox1 dev tools are; they are utter and complete crap. Xbox1 needs them fixed now......not 2 years from now if they are to stay anywhere near the PS4.

DX12 is about fixing Xbox1 period; PC gaming market is at best afterthought for MS; they would rather have everyone on xbox1.

Those that say bs; look at all studios MS has for games.......they've closed all their PC studios or converted them into studios for Xbox....To even think this is coming out on PC before Xbox is foolish.

A lot of my info comes from people I know that work as game developers; these are conversations we have after work; beers etc.

But I've also put some links here and in the mantle thread on how devs feel....if people want I'll dig them up again. Also try and ask a few devs if they heard if there was DX12 back in early 2013......I think a lot will be surprised by the answer....
 
Have you actually used an XBONE Dev kit? Because if you had you'd realise just how how pointless your rant is. It literally matters 0% for what purpose DX12 has for being pushed forward. It benefits both platforms equally.
 
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IMO, Its a little naive to think MS are suddenly all for PC when they have ignored the PC for the past 10 years because Game Consoles are more profitable for them.

The only reason DX12 is now being banded about is because with OpenGL now being taken more seriously and Mantle, Microsoft are loosing their API dominance which they have used to hold the PC back to stop it getting too far ahead of Consoles, or try.

DX12 is all noise, look at us we still rule, what it actually turns out to be remains to be seen.
 
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Have you actually used an XBONE Dev kit? Because if you had you'd realise just how how pointless your rant is. It literally matters 0% for what purpose DX12 has for being pushed forward. It benefits both platforms equally.

No chance it'll benefit them equally, DX12 for XBox one won't be the same as we get in PC, it'll be closer to the metal, as consoles have always been.
 
Not sure what else I can say to that other than you're mistaken. Xbox1 isn't as close to the metal as some of you assume it is, that is half of the problem. Much of the reasoning in moving to x86 architecture was for the very reason of unifying the platforms. Why else would you choose such anarchic approach?

The way the previous generation worked was on vastly different instruction sets, especially the CELL processor in the PS3 (although both 360 and ps3 used PowerPC IS). This is no longer an issue anymore. XBOXone has a few neat tricks up its sleeve and is able to do a lot of great stuff on the fly, but the fundamentals that give the graphics we all want are all there and all very similar. I'm not sure why people keep on with the assumption they're still all that different.
 
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Have you actually used an XBONE Dev kit? Because if you had you'd realise just how how pointless your rant is. It literally matters 0% for what purpose DX12 has for being pushed forward. It benefits both platforms equally.

Seriously?? We have a member here who's a dev who confirmed what I've said about Xbox1 tools; along with the countless other devs interviews on them.

I've seen the kits - I've watched people work on them; its about as good if not worse than original kits for PS3; which were a complete nightmare until Sony fixed the tools 2 years later.

As I said; which platform makes MS more money? pc gaming *which have have no studios for anymore at all* or Xbox? which all their studios make games for; which is a complete and closed walled market place?

You tell me which one is most important one; which is getting DX12 first; why? Its not a rant but the truth; no matter how you try and spin it....;)
 
That's not changed in over a decade. Throw some people a bone (Mantle) and they'll argue anything into the ground. Suddenly people are quick to **** on the hand that feeds them lol.
 
IMO, Its a little naive to think MS are suddenly all for PC when they have ignored the PC for the past 10 years because Game Consoles are more profitable for them.

The only reason DX12 is now being banded about is because with OpenGL now being taken more seriously and Mantle, Microsoft are loosing their API dominance which they have used to hold the PC back to stop it getting too far ahead of Consoles, or try.

DX12 is all noise, look at us we still rule, what it actually turns out to be remains to be seen.
:D

MS ignoring the PC for the past 10 years? Apart from Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and all those games you play running on DirectX? Ok then..

A couple of Mantle games and suddenly AMD have done more for gaming than MS. Come on man don't be silly :p

Microsoft Windows is the PC gaming platform ffs along with Direct X, MS have obviously been working on a new iteration for a long time. Did you think they would stop at DX11?

Do you only run games that use Mantle then Humbug? Everything else is blasphemy. Must be weird being so utterly in love with a company, I wander do AMD pay you for your posts? :p
 
That's not changed in over a decade. Throw some people a bone (Mantle) and they'll argue anything into the ground. Suddenly people are quick to **** on the hand that feeds them lol.

People have been complaining about DX and microsoft long before mantle was even thought about. It's nothing new.

From just over 3 years ago now.

Richard Huddy, the worldwide developer relations manager of AMD's GPU division, says one of the biggest obstacles to PC gaming performance is simply that Microsoft's venerable DirectX keeps "getting in the way."

I'm not quite the PC hardware nut I used to be so I'll let Ben Hardwidge of bit-tech.net set the stage in his own rather poetic words. "Despite what delusional forum chimps might tell you, we all know that the graphics hardware inside today's consoles looks like a meek albino gerbil compared with the healthy tiger you can get in a PC," he wrote. "Compare the GeForce GTX 580's count of 512 stream processors with the weedy 48 units found in the Xbox 360's Xenos GPU, not to mention the aging GeForce 7-series architecture found inside the PS3."

You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out that 512 stream thingies is a lot better than 48 so the obvious question is, why isn't the PC pounding its console counterparts into the ground on the graphics front? PC visuals are generally accepted as being at least potentially better but side-by-side, the differences are usually slight and sometimes, in terms of overall performance, the PC actually finds itself outpaced.

According to Huddy, one of the biggest stumbling blocks is the technology that Microsoft rolled out years ago specifically to make PC gaming better. "It's funny. We often have at least ten times as much horsepower as an Xbox 360 or a PS3 in a high-end graphics card, yet it's very clear that the games don't look ten times as good," Huddy said. "To a significant extent, that's because, one way or another, for good reasons and bad - mostly good, DirectX is getting in the way."

Those good reasons are what led to the widespread adoption of DirectX in the first place. PC gamers of a certain age will no doubt have fond memories of messing around with VESA drivers or buying "special editions" of games that would only run on specific video hardware but while nobody wants to go back to that era, unified APIs carry their own price tag.

"Wrapping it up in a software layer gives you safety and security, but it unfortunately tends to rob you of quite a lot of the performance, and most importantly it robs you of the opportunity to innovate," Huddy said.

He acknowledged that "programming directly-to-metal" would make life more difficult for just about everyone, as hardware manufacturers would have to ensure component stability while developers push the limits of the performance envelope and PC enthusiasts end up dealing with the inevitable fallout, but he maintained that when it came to the question of performance uber alles, it's the way to go. "In terms of doing the very best for the platform, that's how they would actually achieve that," he said.

Of course, how individual developers feel about that idea depends largely on what sort of game they're making. "I don't want anything to do with that, but presumably it depends on what you're developing," said Chris Delay, lead designer and developer at Darwinia and Defcon studio Introversion. "If you're making Crysis 3 or something like that, then it may be exactly what you want."

Crytek's R&D Technical Director Michael Glueck did in fact say the idea "would appeal to us," although he added, "It definitely makes sense to have a standardized, vendor-independent API as an abstraction layer over the hardware, but we would also prefer this API to be really thin and allow more low-level access to the hardware. This will not only improve performance, but it will also allow better use of the available hardware features."
 
Ok, and how is it relevant exactly? What I'm trying to say is, whilst treading on egg shells, is how does that relate in terms of what alternatives are giving back? The undertone is that Mantle is bringing revolutionary changes where as DX12 couldn't possibly do that...

Back in reality however, there isn't any secret magic sauce.
 
Ok, and how is it relevant exactly? What I'm trying to say is, whilst treading on egg shells, is how does that relate in terms of what alternatives are giving back? The undertone is that Mantle is bringing revolutionary changes where as DX12 couldn't possibly do that...

Back in reality however, there isn't any secret magic sauce.

This.

Not sure why people are so quick to not even give DX12 a chance (and I don't care about it being xbox). It reads like people want to see it fail to me but then I see that they favour AMD and so it all makes sense.
 
It is pretty funny given that DirectX is the very API which has allowed us to play most games on PC for the past 10+ years. Mantle has only been out for a few months and it's already being praised by some as "the saviour of PC gaming", a tad (read: a lot) sensationalist if you ask me.
 
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