DirectX 12

[Sugarhell]

Course I'm an nVidia fanboy, doesnt make anything I've said anything less factual.

Yes it does. First amd marketshare is around 35-40%.On both consoles is 100%.They spend the 3 last years developing and creating xbone with microsoft. That means even the xbox API. They have done the same for ps4. The majority of developers only care for consoles.They have a lot more freedom there instead of windows. Intel and amd APUS completely destroy low end gpus on laptops.Nvidia atm only have mid high end dekstop ,HPC and tegra.Yeah i think amd is one of the main leaders on gaming atm.That doesnt mean that nvidia is something small.They have their purpose they have their quality gpus and architecture. And they have CUDA which is really important

 

[drunkenmaster]

Hopefully you dont mean mantle that has 2 games and doesnt work for all amd's hardware even yet?

I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about. How many games used DX11... before DX11 was fully released? How long between DX11 actually becoming available and the first retail shipping game that used DX11?

Dx7 through dx11.2 have taken YEARS to gain widespread adoption, Mantle will be no different, the real question is why would you expect it to be different?

Game's development isn't a short process, neither is making an API, neither is getting games to use a brand new API, DX10 uptake was horrific for a hell of a long time, with the first several games barely being any different in the slightest, in fact almost all performing worse IIRC, than DX9.

Mantle categorically, according to every single tech site preview/review/article on it has a tiny fraction of the overhead DX does and simply is working better.

DX11 didn't work on all past hardware when it was launched, in fact working on very little. I honestly don't know why people make such comments. People act like in gaining momentum faster than any API before... it's failing. Dx9/10/11 didn't have two shipped games with support both before the beta program was even ready and only 5 months or so after consumers heard the first bit of information on it.

We've already heard about DX12(in as much as we heard about Mantle at first), and it's not due to be with us for another year, and adoption from that point onwards we'll have to see.

How many games use something, is irrelevant to how good something is.

 

[triss]

Would you agree that for an Alpha it's about where it should be? It's not a final release nor even a Beta. Mantle is quit simply an Alpha product which should be expected to have problem's.

For a alpha its fine,, But AMD refers to it as a beta so should be treated as such imo
And to say its better than DX based off 2 games imo is wrong.
Theres a few already who say it uses more vram which is fine if u have it to spare otherwise its not good, I'm not here to knock mantle i like it but i dont agree overall for games out there atm its better than dx since for 99.8% of them it simply doesnt work

 

[TheRealDeal]

For a alpha its fine,, But AMD refers to it as a beta so should be treated as such imo
And to say its better than DX based off 2 games imo is wrong.
Theres a few already who say it uses more vram which is fine if u have it to spare otherwise its not good, I'm not here to knock mantle i like it but i dont agree overall for games out there atm its better than dx since for 99.8% of them it simply doesnt work

The mantle Beta program is coming in April which suggests to me they are still in the Alpha phase.

 

[bru]

Firstly someone DID say AMD isn't a big player,

I can only assume you are talking about me, when what I actually said was that AMD are not the biggest player in the market. (the market in question being API's) not that they are not a big player.

The thing that make me think this isn't going to happen, is that why would a company like AMD (who are not the biggest player in the market) go through all the trouble of building, announcing, marketing, working with developers and finally releasing Mantle, just to have it absorbed by Microsoft (the biggest player in the game) two months latter.
If this was the case they must have known about it so why would they expend all the time and resources to plug their new technology when after two months it was going to become somebody else's project, or do you think that Microsoft is going to give up control of DirectX 12 to somebody else?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

The mantle Beta program is coming in April which suggests to me they are still in the Alpha phase.

Ooo, do you have a link for that?
Do they say what to expect when it reaches beta?

 

[TheRealDeal]

Ooo, do you have a link for that?
Do they say what to expect when it reaches beta?

Developer access to #mantle SDK coming in April!

Mantle beta program for developers announced. After that Mantle will be public!








In other news...

Anyone remember Frosty saying Mantle SDK will never be available?

The second slide down is where it states about the beta program. It can only improve support and the end user experience.

 

[drunkenmaster]

For a alpha its fine,, But AMD refers to it as a beta so should be treated as such imo
And to say its better than DX based off 2 games imo is wrong.
Theres a few already who say it uses more vram which is fine if u have it to spare otherwise its not good, I'm not here to knock mantle i like it but i dont agree overall for games out there atm its better than dx since for 99.8% of them it simply doesnt work

It uses more memory because it has far tighter control of memory, IE it can know how much you have and use it effectively rather than waste it.

DX is known to essentially be unpredictable in how much memory it will use so dev's will play it safe. Having more accurate knowledge of how much memory you're using lets you actually use every resource you have available to you.

It's not using more memory as a consequence of anything other than dev's being able to use more memory without fear the API will randomly go over the limit and cause slow downs. It's yet another sign of how much better Mantle is.

 

[triss]

I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about. How many games used DX11... before DX11 was fully released? How long between DX11 actually becoming available and the first retail shipping game that used DX11?

Dx7 through dx11.2 have taken YEARS to gain widespread adoption, Mantle will be no different, the real question is why would you expect it to be different?

Game's development isn't a short process, neither is making an API, neither is getting games to use a brand new API, DX10 uptake was horrific for a hell of a long time, with the first several games barely being any different in the slightest, in fact almost all performing worse IIRC, than DX9.

Mantle categorically, according to every single tech site preview/review/article on it has a tiny fraction of the overhead DX does and simply is working better.

DX11 didn't work on all past hardware when it was launched, in fact working on very little. I honestly don't know why people make such comments. People act like in gaining momentum faster than any API before... it's failing. Dx9/10/11 didn't have two shipped games with support both before the beta program was even ready and only 5 months or so after consumers heard the first bit of information on it.

We've already heard about DX12(in as much as we heard about Mantle at first), and it's not due to be with us for another year, and adoption from that point onwards we'll have to see.

How many games use something, is irrelevant to how good something is.

When you can tell me for a fact mantle runs better on the majority of engines out there for a fact 100% without some people using mantle having to drop settings due to vram usage i will reconsider my opinion

To the op sorry for the off topic stuff and i wont be replying to anymore of it

 

[drunkenmaster]

The second slide down is where it states about the beta program. It can only improve support and the end user experience.

there was a slide AGES ago that stated "the dev's currently have the alpha SDK, the beta SDK is due April and the final is expected...." I can't remember when, end of year some time anyway. But I can't find that slide anywhere, I presume it was a slide used at the APU 2013 event but one of those that was made available weeks later like some of the youtube vids from say Oxide.

Been trying to find it for ages but haven't been able to

 

[drunkenmaster]

When you can tell me for a fact mantle runs better on the majority of engines out there for a fact 100% without some people using mantle having to drop settings due to vram usage i will reconsider my opinion

To the op sorry for the off topic stuff and i wont be replying to anymore of it

In the post you quoted, where did I mention memory usage? Your original point was Mantle was only used in two games, thus couldn't possibly be better. I notice how you brushed over that it's massively ahead of any other API at the same time. DX10/11/11.1/11.2 most certainly didn't have two games shipped before the final releases were available, with about 25 games with Mantle support in the making already(most due in the next 12-18months afaik). DX10 probably didn't have 10 games with DX10 12 months after it launched.

 

[shankly1985]

When you can tell me for a fact mantle runs better on the majority of engines out there for a fact 100% without some people using mantle having to drop settings due to vram usage i will reconsider my opinion

To the op sorry for the off topic stuff and i wont be replying to anymore of it

Mantle as allowed me to higher my settings and keep frame rate locked 120fps, on DirectX I couldn't do this on full ultra unless I disabled msaa.
The issue you talking about with vram is from cards that are not fully supporting Mantle, it's wrong to judge Mantle on something it's not working correctly on. Base your options on what it is working on. R9 series.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

The second slide down is where it states about the beta program. It can only improve support and the end user experience.

So doesn't look like there will be much difference for us, but might be better for developers. I guess it's basically the same thing just rolled out to more companies.

 

[TheRealDeal]

So doesn't look like there will be much difference for us, but might be better for developers. I guess it's basically the same thing just rolled out to more companies.

It's just a waiting game tbh. The Beta is going to see more developers using mantle but we all know how long it takes to make a decent game. I hate having to wait but that's all you do as a gamer waiting on tech to move forward between playing your favorite games.

 

[humbug]

Mantle as allowed me to higher my settings and keep frame rate locked 120fps, on DirectX I couldn't do this on full ultra unless I disabled msaa.
The issue you talking about with vram is from cards that are not fully supporting Mantle, it's wrong to judge Mantle on something it's not working correctly on. Base your options on what it is working on. R9 series.

+1 on on this, i have one of those 2GB cards and while its inconvenient that i can't run "full ultra settings" i'm still able to run very high setting for what my card is capable of with solid Frame Rates, and my 2GB card is the most powerful one AMD made.

Despite this 2GB cards specifically will get better memory optimisation in April.

Settings for a 7870XT 2GB, runs perfectly like that.

 

[shankly1985]

+1 on on this, i have one of those 2GB cards and while its inconvenient that i can't run "full ultra settings" i'm still able to run very high setting for what my card is capable of with solid Frame Rates, and my 2GB card is the most powerful one AMD made.

Despite this 2GB cards specifically will get better memory optimisation in April.

Settings for a 7870XT 2GB, runs perfectly like that.

And truth be told they very little in it ultra vs high.

 

[humbug]

And truth be told they very little in it ultra vs high.

That's also true. yes

 

[ICDP]

The fact that more developers are jumping on the Mantle bandwagon is pointing more and more to the fact that Mantle is here to stay. If the rumour that DX12 is related to Mantle is true, then key developers could simply be pre-empting this union.

All guesswork on the DX12/Mantle union but nobody can deny that Mantle is definitely making very large waves. Lower CPU overhead helps everyone, Intel, AMD and Nvidia will benefit. Mantle has been proven as a viable API and has most definitely succeeded as a proof of concept. The fact that more and more devs are adopting it is proof. I would not expect these devs to back Mantle if it excluded Nvidia and Intel in its future.

IMHO the future of PC gaming got a little better for everyone. AMD deserve credit for pushing Mantle and the games industry forward.

 

[~Mike~]

Sometimes I have to lol at you Charlie, AMD are very much small time, they have less than 10% market share. AMD with all those fingers in those console pies, yet cannot make a profit, their last couple of fiscal years reported losses. Ok a profit this quarter but 2014 outlook is looking not very rosy in the slightest. To take anything away from nVidia's 90% market share they will have to do a lot more than have a few GPU's in some consoles. There is no bigger player in gaming right now ? Only you could believe that.

Source of your figures?

 

[JediFragger]

Source of your figures?

His delusional mind