It is if your a United fan from as far back as 1993.
Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? **Spoilers**
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It is if your a United fan from as far back as 1993.
I have said it for a few years now and I stand by it. I firmly believe that both Fergie and the Glazers knew that when a new manager came in the squad would need a major rebuild and money has been put away for this.
sunama said:
Alright chill out no need to get all arsey about it, you have an opinion that differs to mine, whoopy dee doo
But I'm going to use another forums reply to this, to explain the point (I'm paraphrasing).
sunama said:
I think as a planet we should spend less on guns and more on Space exploration. Stating the obvious does not make me an ideal candidate for the Nobel Peace Price or the next Director of NASA Either.
All well and good saying if we got Jose would we be here, If we got Pep we would be there, if we got Guus Hiddink we would be somewhere else. The fact is we have Moyes and we have never had any of the so called expert fans use as a comparative.
It's also worth mentioning that while Jose returned to Chelsea, he can sit back and enjoy the fact it's the same commercial team who have been doing transfers from his first stint there and through successive management changes. Pep for what it's worth also had had to turn up day one with an unchanged commercial team and all his backroom staff in place some six months before he officially took over. Fergie and Gill worked hand in glove for many years
- Could Moyes do better of course he can.
- Has he inherited a squad in need of overhaul and built to play to play how SAF wanted them to play ?
- Does he need to build his own squad that plays his way from Youth Team Through to first team to make it his team ?
- Has he made some tactical mistakes ?
- Has he had a full squad to play with consistently in comparison to other teams ?
- Are Utd a club going through an unprecedented amount of change (by their own standard) with a new Manager, Coaching Set up and new Financial Team. Basically change at every level of the club
I'm guessing Any Idiot knows the answer to these questions. If when he has his own team and he is playing with a relatively fit squad, were scratching for Europe and football is dull and drab then I will be at the front asking for his head.
Caporegime
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The problem is Loki, what way do you think he wants to play? We've seen barely any experimentation from him and continually drab, negative tactics. If that's the style he wants to play then do you really want him to build a team to help him do that??
Caporegime
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Thing is the thing I get at is, if someone is implementing change(on the pitch) then you can understand(if not accept) losses as a manager/team attempt to try something new and different. As Shami says, there is zero evidence of change on the pitch. Which manager could walk into that Utd job and not know central midfield was desperate for first team, back up and youngsters for the future players. yet he sent out Ed to buy Fabregas, probably Barca's most important player this season and the second most important player last season....
As for the other changes I believe you're right, he's turned everything upside down behind the scenes, but all I can read from that is incompetence. Most successful say CEO's, managers, whatever, in any business will come in, do a proper assessment on everything at the club/business and change WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED and continue doing anything that is working well. Change for the sake of change, is stupid. Moyes has shown zero intention to adapt to Utd as whole, be it squad, training, mentality. What makes more sense one person coming in and changing some of what he does but probably 100 people between coaches, playing staff, youngsters, physio's, etc, etc, or keeping most things ticking over and the one person adapting, which would have better results.
This isn't a case of lets say, Alladyce taking over West Ham, Utd were not in free fall, they weren't failing, their training wasn't dire, the players weren't unhappy with the manager/training methods/routine, they were successful. A new CEO taking over a business where the previous one wasn't fired but retired, while successful, wouldn't randomly change everything in the company that worked, not without being fired. Their job is to come in, assess the business(in this case a football team) and implement changes where they are needed, not where they aren't.
Most of what Loki lists as potential problems have in large part been caused by Moyes. What the club did need(and literally anyone with eyes knew this) was some new players, some players gotten rid of and some investment for the future... he's basically failed on this side entirely.
I think a better(most actually) managers would come in, take stock of reports into every aspect of the club and make a list of things that NEED to be changed for the better, and find ways to implement those changes. At utd that would be, new players, CM, lb, CB particularly. It would also be sensible to set achievable goals, getting Fabregas was unachievable, getting an improvement on Carrick or Cleverley is so painfully achievable it's embarrassing they didn't.
He changed the entire training setup, coaching staff, and way he works with the players, because he's incapable of adapting IMHO, and that bodes very poorly for Utd, because if he can't adapt from a team happy to not lose to the top 8 and thinks that is success... they won't win anything under him.
I can't judge him on what Utd would be like if he had 5 years to choose every single player in the team, I can judge him on HOW he is implementing change towards "his" team, and he's doing exceptionally badly. Instilling a very poor mentality, poor ability in the transfer market, choosing the wrong targets and wasting the clubs time on dead ends rather than effecting much needed change. Poor team choices, poor tactical choices, poor behind the scenes choices, the list is almost endless and Utd's fall in form is entirely expected when you see what Moyes has done on and off the pitch.
As for the other changes I believe you're right, he's turned everything upside down behind the scenes, but all I can read from that is incompetence. Most successful say CEO's, managers, whatever, in any business will come in, do a proper assessment on everything at the club/business and change WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED and continue doing anything that is working well. Change for the sake of change, is stupid. Moyes has shown zero intention to adapt to Utd as whole, be it squad, training, mentality. What makes more sense one person coming in and changing some of what he does but probably 100 people between coaches, playing staff, youngsters, physio's, etc, etc, or keeping most things ticking over and the one person adapting, which would have better results.
This isn't a case of lets say, Alladyce taking over West Ham, Utd were not in free fall, they weren't failing, their training wasn't dire, the players weren't unhappy with the manager/training methods/routine, they were successful. A new CEO taking over a business where the previous one wasn't fired but retired, while successful, wouldn't randomly change everything in the company that worked, not without being fired. Their job is to come in, assess the business(in this case a football team) and implement changes where they are needed, not where they aren't.
Most of what Loki lists as potential problems have in large part been caused by Moyes. What the club did need(and literally anyone with eyes knew this) was some new players, some players gotten rid of and some investment for the future... he's basically failed on this side entirely.
I think a better(most actually) managers would come in, take stock of reports into every aspect of the club and make a list of things that NEED to be changed for the better, and find ways to implement those changes. At utd that would be, new players, CM, lb, CB particularly. It would also be sensible to set achievable goals, getting Fabregas was unachievable, getting an improvement on Carrick or Cleverley is so painfully achievable it's embarrassing they didn't.
He changed the entire training setup, coaching staff, and way he works with the players, because he's incapable of adapting IMHO, and that bodes very poorly for Utd, because if he can't adapt from a team happy to not lose to the top 8 and thinks that is success... they won't win anything under him.
I can't judge him on what Utd would be like if he had 5 years to choose every single player in the team, I can judge him on HOW he is implementing change towards "his" team, and he's doing exceptionally badly. Instilling a very poor mentality, poor ability in the transfer market, choosing the wrong targets and wasting the clubs time on dead ends rather than effecting much needed change. Poor team choices, poor tactical choices, poor behind the scenes choices, the list is almost endless and Utd's fall in form is entirely expected when you see what Moyes has done on and off the pitch.
Firstly - Given that Moyes was able to do with Everton with very little money and still get 5th / 6th or thereabouts every year (and being fair to EFC, the name isnt exactly known in the same way), you are just completely guessing about 5th place after spending a fortune.
The club name itself will attract bigger names than those he could get at Everton, the transfer money /wages on top of that (especially now Mata has joined) will encourage a much better level of player as well (no disrepect to the Everton players intended). Even if Utd dont get the Fabregas', Xavi's etc etc , the likes of Herrera , Reus, Cavalho (and there are a good number of players in this kind of bracket of age, experience who are worthy of big transfer deals in the summer) who would improve the squad immeasurably from what is evident today.
Given the above (and the fact that with a re-inforced midfield, Rooney would actually be able to play majority of the seasons coming, if he re-signs, MUCH nearer goal where he is more dangerous) a team struggling for 5/6/7 should at the very least be fighting for 3rd/ 4th . No disrespect to Arsenal but they arent quite on the same level of squad development as City or Chelsea.
(and dont forget - its not exactly as though 4th is THAT far away in real terms, with Utd playing so terribly. With a good core of 7 or eight fit first team players - with the likes of DDG, Rafael, Mata, Januzzaj, Rooney, RvP already at the club and a couple of big signings in the summer - CL positions really woudlnt be that un-obtainable with just a few good signings)
Also Given the big deals either already signed by Utd (Chevy) or about to be (Nike) £200m is relatively small amount of money even given the debt still on the club. Fulham are likely to get more from the new TV deal than City did winning the leage the season before last, United are likely to get double that this season. Even allowing for a modest Nike deal, within a couple of seasons (and this is the time frame you mentioned above) just from kit deal, Shirt sponsorship and TV deal (allowing for 5th in your supposition) United will be getting ~£150m+ every season from just those three deals without any of the other partnership /sponsorship deals Utd have signed.
So I doubt Utd would struggle at all giving any new manager funds if/ when required
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I might be a bit misguided but I genuinely think the system he wants to play will work for us long term
I think his line up or formation will be
defence
4 at the back with two attacking full backs. Long term partnership will be Jones and Evans.
Midfield
2 sitting midfielders that will allow the full backs to push on and offer the width. Of them I am confident that Fellaini will come good as a sitting midfielder and be the long term the long term successor to Carrick. He doesn't have the pace to do box to box. Moyes will undoubtedly strengthen in that area as well. If rumours are to be believed he has had William Carvalho scouted 8 times and I think two from Fellaini, Carvalho and Carrick will flourish under Moyes.
Attack
3 Attackers from Mata, Rooney, Adnan, Young, Wellbeck and possibly Kagawa with AN Other as out and out striker. I'm not convinced RvP will stay. Being honest and this is not being arrogant, if RvP goes, he goes. Yes he contributed massively to last year's title success but for a striker he is getting the wrong side of 30. As City proved with the transfer of Negredo, there is value in the transfer market for a player to run the channels, hold the ball up and be a goal scorer.
Has he experimented ? Yes and no. In too many games he has been too steady and not gone for it. Sunderland being a classic example at home in the cup. Then you look at the injuries he has had and I don't think he has been able to put the same back four out if he wanted to for three successive games.
I remember when he took over and two things were levelled at him. He will destroy attacking talent and he will never attract big name players. Both of which have been killed dead.
Rooney bar his injuries has looked sharp all season (probably carried us in a lot of matches) and has probably had one of his most consistent seasons.
Mata - He's no Ronaldo or Messi but I think it's a fair assessment that he is in that bracket of world class. Now unless Mata is a complete numpty and given he has a Law and Journalism degree, he isn't then he must know that the chances of United finishing top 4 are less than 50/50. People would love to believe that David Moyes had no influence over the transfer and it was just the wages and the lure of Manchester United that made it happen. I think thats pretty insulting to both Mata and Moyes really.
You look at the two players he has signed in Mata and Fellaini and what stands out to me most is there pass completion percentage. So you can see what he is trying to achieve in terms of his style of play
Drunkenmaster said:
He's the manager and he's entitled to bring in who he wants as staff it's not upto him solely adapt to the players, it's the players who quite painfully in some cases can't adapt to Moyes. If you have that kind of nonsense going on then how does he put his authority on the team. The Lunatics are truly running the asylum if thats the case. Also for the record, Mullensteen was offered a job to stay on and he turned it down. Also David DeGea is having one of his best seasons at United under Chris Woods and you can see has development has accelerated since the start of this season.
Loki
I agree with majority of that - although I would worry about CM not being able to create enough with Carrick and Fellaini (and while I like Cavalho a lot, and is worth chasing for transfer I think he is more likely the long term successor to Carrick with a more dynamic /creative /goal scoring CM along side him.
Evans and Jones as a long terrm partnership is a very good way to go, but this summer imo Moyes needs to attract an experienced 25-28yo to replace Vidic and Rio (and also to encourage Evans and Jones to push on and develop)
I agree with majority of that - although I would worry about CM not being able to create enough with Carrick and Fellaini (and while I like Cavalho a lot, and is worth chasing for transfer I think he is more likely the long term successor to Carrick with a more dynamic /creative /goal scoring CM along side him.
Evans and Jones as a long terrm partnership is a very good way to go, but this summer imo Moyes needs to attract an experienced 25-28yo to replace Vidic and Rio (and also to encourage Evans and Jones to push on and develop)
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He's lost to both of them this season
Whilst in 7th place?
Yeah agreed on the Defence. Again paper talk suggest Garay done deal for summer
Caporegime
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I think the worrying thing about that idea is how we transition the ball from defence to the forwards. At Stoke we played pretty similar to that system but we ended up either going wide and having the fullbacks cross it in (massively underusing the talent we have up front) or just going long to the forwards (massively underusing the talent up front) Playing 2 deep midfielders leaves us rarely able to move the ball forwards along the ground unless we go wide.
Always been a bit nervouis about Garay (although he would be an improvement on what we have) because of his failure at Real Madrid.
Also recent rumours that Sporting are trying to do a deal for him with a Russian club this winter (I think their window is still open isnt it?)
The other thing is squad adaptability. We have had the willing bodies to play 4-3-3 as an option but not really the quality. Sometimes 4-4-2 just doesnt work against some teams so we need the experienced players to be utilizesd in different formations. Having some really creative CM's will help this (as we already have multiple options for the front three).
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He signed Fellaini... For Manchester United.
He has got to go. As a Spurs fan I would love him to stay but in true Manc style my Dad, a United fan, has disengaged with football completely because he can't stand watching Moyes' incompetence for 90mins anymore. Moyes is too destructive on family life!
He has got to go. As a Spurs fan I would love him to stay but in true Manc style my Dad, a United fan, has disengaged with football completely because he can't stand watching Moyes' incompetence for 90mins anymore. Moyes is too destructive on family life!
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Caporegime
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Says on wikipedia that Garay has agreed a deal with Zenit, that could be wrong though, there's no source.
I think the clubs have agreed - Im not sure if personal terms have been though (that was certainly the basis of a couple of articles I read earlier this week)
The CM's wouldn't be responsible for creating chances when you have Rooney/Mata/Januzaj in front of them.
The 2 CM's then would be sitting midfielders like he says, protecting the back 4 and breaking up play.
imo we need a sitting midfielder and a box to box next to him, someone to bring the ball forward and one to sit mopping up play protecting the back 4.
Agree in part - but also you have to think about times when creativity IS needed from the middle (when 2 or three of those mentioned are injured / being rested etc etc) even without considering when the opposing team necessitates a change in tactics
For too long Utd have relied on wide men creating all the chances. Im not against wingers still being a big part of the club, thats part of the heritage after all, but this cant be the ONLY way for the team to be creative.
You have to consider the fact though that we are getting overrun in midfield far too often nowadays and if we are having a change of formation, we need the 2 holding midfielders sat there tackling and breaking up play. Distributing to the more creative players in front of them.
There should be more than enough creativity with that front 4.
I think your dad should apply for the managers job then if he care's so much. Jesus....
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