Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? **Spoilers**

[hawkhench]

Having watched Everton for Moyes reign there I'd say the following is his "style":

- *******ing anyone for taking a shot from outside the penalty area
- Lone striker constantly running channels with very little support
- Slow buildup play, never see a quick free kick/throw in/break
- Solid defense, including midfielders drilled to defend first and thing about going forward later
- Only playing youngsters when forced into it, and dropping them if they make any mistakes (Ross Barkley barely got a look-in under Moyes. Developed him well, but didn't dare play him)
- Always reverting to his most experienced players for the biggest games, as he trusts them to do what he's drilled the most (however inept they are - see Phil Neville against Wigan in the FA Cup last year for a good example)
- Sets out to not lose games, rather than win games (picks teams to try and disrupt opposition rather than picking a team to impose their own will on the opposition).

He's often astute in the transfer market, but he spent a lot of money on players he either seemingly didn't want, or immediately decided weren't going to work how he wanted them to. He finds lots of good footballers, but often doesn't unleash them.

His style results in consistency without flair in the same way the original Moneyball concepts in baseball were designed to get you to the playoffs, but didn't really have the x-factor to push you over the edge when you got there.

 

[FrankJH]

It really isn't just the players on the pitch that count, that is an absolutely retarded view point to have.

To be fair the players on the pitch (and the formation) should have been good enough in the CL the other night, but the attitude until the 80th minute was purely about lack of passion / couldnt care / etc etc

Not one of the original 10 outfield players showed enough will to win until it was far too late. That has been the problem on and off for majority of this season

Who came out and said that? (Honestly don't know as I just read he replaced them all).

There have been quite a few articles from the broadsheets since the summer mentioning this in passing as fact. I (along with anyone else here) will not know for a while yet if this is true, but I very much doubt all of SAFs backroom staff would have been fired just like that on a whim.

Being a member of staff and being the manager is a completely different thing as proven by pretty much everyone who has worked under him who have gone on to be managers. Also you can't really judge Rene harshly on his time at Fulham can you?.

Sorry , maybe I didnt explain properly

1) Just because a member of staff under SAF worked well, it doesnt automatically mean he will work well under another manager

2) in Rene's particular case the fact he got the Manager's post so quickly after SAF left surely means he was already loooking to make that step up which was never an option at the club he was at (and while this isnt evident as yet, it could be the case for other ex members of staff)

Anyways I don't know how fantastic the staff were but they had done what was required to win the league countless times

Rene hasnt been there that long, yes he won a couple of titles with Utd, but not "countless"

Oh and I wouldn't say they were held together by the genius of ferguson, but he could have fielded me, Baz and Pigeon and probably beaten some of the crap teams that turned up at Old Trafford just due to the fear they played with, god knows how many times Liverpool have gone there and been a pile of crap. (Unless teams being scared of you is genius or just their own stupidity.)
Without ferguson I don't expect the team to win the title, there are less 'free' wins, but I expect them to do a whole of a lot better than they have done and a lot of it is down to the players also, although it is Moyes job to get them not to be nobs putting no effort in. Moyes isn't terrible, but he doesn't suit taking over a big club, let alone one with expectations as big as united

I think ferguson has left the club in a pretty **** position and he doesn't really care/it makes him look better.

Like three Liverpool fans would EVER do that LOL

But your point could also be made for the staff, they could be brilliant, they could be **** and SAF doing what he did best.

Dont disagree with the 2nd last paragraph at all, said much the ssame a few times.

I get your point but I think SAF cares more for the club in general than what you last sentiment intimates. His many league wins etc prove how great he was, I doubt he would want whoever the next guy was to fail just to make that appear even better.

 

[SideWinder]

where do you get your stats from?

As above...

DM - Where do you get your stats from?

 

[Trusty]

His style results in consistency without flair in the same way the original Moneyball concepts in baseball were designed to get you to the playoffs, but didn't really have the x-factor to push you over the edge when you got there.

Yeah that's a good analogy, that is sport though, percentages and margins. It's what all the top league british managers are doing at the moment in the PL from Newcastle to Norwich..There is such a gulf between cl money/top 4 and the rest thats the only way you will get results consistently..

 

[The Running Man]

i have no idea what this is proving?

More passing, more dribbling = more creative play for those who can't read the link.

 

[Trusty]

More passing, more dribbling = more creative play for those who can't read the link.

first 8 games?

 

[dannyjo22]

*bangs head on table*

keep up your drivel mate...

Yes in other words your analogy bears no comparison and that's your answer. Try banging harder do us all a favour.

 

[hawkhench]

Yeah that's a good analogy, that is sport though, percentages and margins. It's what all the top league british managers are doing at the moment in the PL from Newcastle to Norwich..There is such a gulf between cl money/top 4 and the rest thats the only way you will get results consistently..

Indeed, but he seems to be continuing with a similar approach at Man U who do have the money, and certainly some of the talent. Granted, SAF left Moyes a dog of a squad - it's a miracle they won the league last year - but he still has players to work with.

He brought the wrong former player with him - should have bought Baines to replace Evra instead - and that was because he was trying to be cheap about it.

 

[dannyjo22]

More passing, more dribbling = more creative play for those who can't read the link.

Yet they have scored less goals. Not that I'm disagreeing and Martinez is indeed playing more interesting football the results though are the same.

Where as Moyes is playing worse football with worse results at United so it's not really a good comparison

 

[dannyjo22]

He brought the wrong former player with him - should have bought Baines to replace Evra instead - and that was because he was trying to be cheap about it.

Baines for more crosses?

It's jageilka they should have taken not Baines. Or even Hibbert and Gibson back rather than Fellaini.

 

[Trusty]

Indeed, but he seems to be continuing with a similar approach at Man U who do have the money, and certainly some of the talent. Granted, SAF left Moyes a dog of a squad - it's a miracle they won the league last year - but he still has players to work with.

He brought the wrong former player with him - should have bought Baines to replace Evra instead - and that was because he was trying to be cheap about it.

Yeah i don't even think he wanted Felliani though tbh, not at 30 mil, he knew he wasn't worth that. But, you got a nice deal out of it, made 20 million on him.

The united defense needs a right overhaul, you worried Moyes might pinch Jakielka over the summer?

 

[Trusty]

Where as Moyes is playing worse football with worse results at United so it's not really a good comparison

1 step back, 2 steps forwards eh

 

[4T5]

As he gone yet ?

 

[hawkhench]

Baines for more crosses?

Better than Evra defensively as well, if he's going to play crosses he might as well get the Leagues best crosser from the last few years! Googled a good article from beginning of this season linky

Yeah i don't even think he wanted Felliani though tbh, not at 30 mil, he knew he wasn't worth that. But, you got a nice deal out of it, made 20 million on him.

The united defense needs a right overhaul, you worried Moyes might pinch Jakielka over the summer?

Didn't make quite that much on him, was nearer £12.5m. If you want to give us the extra £7.5m go ahead though

And I'm not sure, it's barely a year since Jag signed a new contract. Since then Everton have got stronger, and Man U don't look quite so attractive. Wouldn't put it past Moyes to come for him (see above, he likes players he knows and trusts) but I'm not 100% convinced he'd go - he's seen what happened to Lescott. If he was a couple of years younger maybe, but he never ended up at Arsenal, so I doubt he'll end up going now.

 

[Purdy]

To be fair the players on the pitch (and the formation) should have been good enough in the CL the other night, but the attitude until the 80th minute was purely about lack of passion / couldnt care / etc etc

Not one of the original 10 outfield players showed enough will to win until it was far too late. That has been the problem on and off for majority of this season



There have been quite a few articles from the broadsheets since the summer mentioning this in passing as fact. I (along with anyone else here) will not know for a while yet if this is true, but I very much doubt all of SAFs backroom staff would have been fired just like that on a whim.



Sorry , maybe I didnt explain properly

1) Just because a member of staff under SAF worked well, it doesnt automatically mean he will work well under another manager

2) in Rene's particular case the fact he got the Manager's post so quickly after SAF left surely means he was already loooking to make that step up which was never an option at the club he was at (and while this isnt evident as yet, it could be the case for other ex members of staff)




Rene hasnt been there that long, yes he won a couple of titles with Utd, but not "countless"



Like three Liverpool fans would EVER do that LOL

But your point could also be made for the staff, they could be brilliant, they could be **** and SAF doing what he did best.

Dont disagree with the 2nd last paragraph at all, said much the ssame a few times.

I get your point but I think SAF cares more for the club in general than what you last sentiment intimates. His many league wins etc prove how great he was, I doubt he would want whoever the next guy was to fail just to make that appear even better.

Apologies as my reply won't be nicely layed out like yours

You could be right, but the same could be said about the players we had under Hodgson, whether they don't want to play for the manager/he is crap tactically/they have low motivation or confidence at the end of the day comes to the manager, yes players don't help (see Stevie purposely missing the penalty vs Blackburn to get roy sacked) but the manager usually does something to make that the case imo.

Yeah you could be right, could've not got on with Moyes but I'd be doing my utmost to make sure it is at least trialled as it pretty much couldn't have gone worse.

There was quite a bit of hype about Rene post departure, wouldn't surprise me if he was approached rather than the other way around. (or actively seeking the moment he left).

I don't just mean Rene, everyone who has been there under Ferguson, it clearly worked and he can't possibly have done everything top to bottom, he had to have at least competent people working with him and he seemed to appoint them quite well. Although I think Phelan was just there for when they lose

I don't think your players are utter **** and Ferguson carried them fully, there is certainly a lot of talent there but I'd say he was the difference between a decent/good manager taking that team 2nd/3rd as opposed to first, I mean the amount you won the title by was mental, he must have been working with some decent staff too, certainly better than what Moyes had I'd imagine. (But if they all walked it doesn't really matter, but I find it hard to believe.)

I think Fergie cares about the club, but Ferguson comes first. I think the RVP signing highlights that but maybe its just because I hate the guy

 

[FrankJH]

He brought the wrong former player with him - should have bought Baines to replace Evra instead - and that was because he was trying to be cheap about it.

I dont think Baines was ever a realistic target - he isnt the kind of player to force a move through, and Utd would have offered what amounts to obscene money for a player who would probably end up playing for Utd 2 - 3 years at most.

While it is an issue, it also would not have catered for the black hole of a problem Utd have which is CM

Purdy

I dont know about the Liverpool squad in question, but did you have vital 1st team members so near the end of their contracts and only ever going to get 1 year extensions at best (Utd policy for their age group) if at all for so many players like Giggs, Rio, Vidic and Evra (and baring in mind how long those players had been at the club)?

This is a huge factor I believe, and hasnt helped Moyes one bit - given Rio's and Vidic's injuries over the last few years whether they would get an /another extension was always going to be unlikely.

As with everything the press very rarely say the full story, and Im sure in years to come we wil find out what is truth and what is myth around the staff that was already there, maybe Rene wanted to stay in exactly the same position (but then if anyone - he was the one staff member who was going to change title if for no other reason that Moyes is much more hands on in training vs SAF who had taken a back seat slightly in this particular regard).

 

[_Jimlad_]

Yes in other words your analogy bears no comparison and that's your answer. Try banging harder do us all a favour.

Do us all favour ? I think I am the only one who does not have you on ingore... Let me fix that.

 

[hawkhench]

I dont think Baines was ever a realistic target - he isnt the kind of player to force a move through, and Utd would have offered what amounts to obscene money for a player who would probably end up playing for Utd 2 - 3 years at most.

Baines apparently did say he wanted to go on deadline day - but as you say isn't the type to force the issue. Only issue was the asking price. He'd have cost less than Fellaini, who the way it's going at the moment looks the definition of "obscene money for a player who would probably end up playing for Utd 2 - 3 years at most".

I never said he should have chased either, but of the two he picked the wrong one.

 

[Shamikebab]

Baines would have been a pointless signing. Left back is just not our problem. In fact on tuesday night like several times this season Evra was one of the few players who looked like he gave a ****.

 

[FrankJH]

Baines apparently did say he wanted to go on deadline day - but as you say isn't the type to force the issue. Only issue was the asking price. He'd have cost less than Fellaini, who the way it's going at the moment looks the definition of "obscene money for a player who would probably end up playing for Utd 2 - 3 years at most".

I never said he should have chased either, but of the two he picked the wrong one.

That late in the day Everton probably would have asked for MF money for Baines, simply because they wouldnt have had time to replace him properly.


Purdy - missed your point about RvP - but its a good one. The only thing I would say is I doubt anyone can blame SAF for buying him and wanting to go out on a high after so long - and whats more from what I read SAF only chose to retire in the Winter after signing RvP so its not like SAF signed him KNOWING he would only be there until the next summer.

Baines would have been a pointless signing. Left back is just not our problem. In fact on tuesday night like several times this season Evra was one of the few players who looked like he gave a ****.

While attacking thats very true - but defending he has been pretty dodgy for a few seasons due to his legs letting him down.

I would agree (and did just a few posts ago) that CM is a much more dire situation though