E-Scooter discussion after fatal collision
- Thread starter ianh
- Start date
Caporegime
14 year old fighting for his life now...
"The teenager is thought to have lost control riding on the pavement and collided with a bus stop at about midday on Saturday, according to The Sun.
He suffered a serious head injury and was airlifted to another hospital - where he remains in a critical condition."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...r-his-life-after-escooter-crash-a4189756.html
"The teenager is thought to have lost control riding on the pavement and collided with a bus stop at about midday on Saturday, according to The Sun.
He suffered a serious head injury and was airlifted to another hospital - where he remains in a critical condition."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...r-his-life-after-escooter-crash-a4189756.html
Associate
If they were illegal the police would stop you but they don’t so law is lagging decades behind.
You can do 30mph plus on a road bike but they are totally legal. Hit someone at that speed and they could easily be killed. The fact scooters have motors doesn’t mean anything.
You can do 30mph plus on a road bike but they are totally legal. Hit someone at that speed and they could easily be killed. The fact scooters have motors doesn’t mean anything.
Didn't the inventor of the Segway punt himself off a cliff some time ago too... while riding a Segway?
(Edit: Ah, it was the British businessman who bought the company. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39377851/...egway-company-owner-rides-scooter-cliff-dies/)
(Edit: Ah, it was the British businessman who bought the company. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39377851/...egway-company-owner-rides-scooter-cliff-dies/)
Soldato
They're not explicitly illegal. They're only illegal in the same way that any other vehicle on the road with no tax/insurance/MOT is illegal.
It does. It means they are classed as a vehicle. Bicycles are not vehicles because they are self-propelled (ebikes are not classed as vehicles because they can't be used under electric power alone, you still have to pedal. So they are electrically assisted rather than electrically powered).
If you put your escooter through a registration and MOT process, you could ride it legally on the road with numberplates and insurance. (But it would probably need a fair bit of modification to be able to comply with the MOT)
Don
If you made the e-scooter assistance only, it would be legal too, I assume?
I have to assume that this kid wasn't wearing a helmet if he suffered a serious head injury. If that's the case then as tragic and awful as this is, considering the kids age, a massive part of the blame must fall on the parent for the resulting severity of this particular accident and not wholly on the device itself.
That said, I feel absolutely awful for the family, I really do.
Escooters are a tough one. As someone who rides a wide variety of electric vehicles, whether it's ebikes, escooters, eboards, the most dangerous of them all are the boards (and I ride them the most and adore them, but they are dangerous if not used correctly and cautiously)
The scooters lul you into a false sense of security because they're so easy to pick up, they feel much more stable, they have good breaking systems, and they're fun! They're awesome devices. But once you hit 15-20mph+ the stakes go up and the risk of injury from an accident increases massively. But due to their ease of learning, perceived extra safety from the stability and decent braking systems, many people feel safe riding them without helmets.
On a recent holiday I rode them every day, on a few of the days I rode them with my mother, who is in her 60's. She had an absolute blast. Was able to pick up straight away and start bombing around. It made me very uncomfortable knowing she had no helmet though. Especially once she built up the confidence to ride it at full speed, as I'm very aware of how easily a stray rock, divot in the road, pedestrian stepping out in front of you, or unexpected electrical brake or cut out can throw you. It made me feel a little sick after the fact to think of what could have gone wrong because I knew she wouldn't be able to take a tumble like I can.
As much as love them and feel that they should be a huge part of city and commuter life going forward, I think any of these electric powered or assisted devices should legally require the user to have a helmet. Or perhaps legally required if you're using it in say 'fast mode' above a certain mph.
I've been stopped multiple times in London on my electric skateboard. I ride very concientiously and very slow if I have to go on the pavement so I've never been given any trouble. I'm pretty sure they're well within their rights to confiscate it though.
I have friends who have had massive trouble in other countries, some of whom have had their (multi thousand pound) boards confiscated and incurred massive fines because they're much stricter on enforcement. It's quite saddening. We need the right balance of education, infrastructure and rider responsibility and accountability to be able to use these devices safely because they're some of the the best alternatives to cars we have at the moment.
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what caught my eye was the Portland escooter trial and results they found
bicycles(not even ebikes) are 4x cars, so 0.4 injuries per 10,000 miles, in comparison .... so e-scooters sound pretty dangerous (with the caveats they gave)
I'm a regular cyclist, I cant but believe 5x the risk on an e-scooter wouldn't be palpable.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-of-1500-us-e-scooter-injuries-in-2018-2019-2?r=US&IR=T
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/709719 ... they're putting in infrastructure !]
- per my earlier post.... I still think the mental health issues she had and social media correlation are a more important discussion issue.
bicycles(not even ebikes) are 4x cars, so 0.4 injuries per 10,000 miles, in comparison .... so e-scooters sound pretty dangerous (with the caveats they gave)
I'm a regular cyclist, I cant but believe 5x the risk on an e-scooter wouldn't be palpable.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-of-1500-us-e-scooter-injuries-in-2018-2019-2?r=US&IR=T
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/709719 ... they're putting in infrastructure !]
- per my earlier post.... I still think the mental health issues she had and social media correlation are a more important discussion issue.
Not sure why the link your quote is to some Facebook SEC doc?
Interesting stats, I think the rental aspect is a massive factor, as per the experience in my previous post. So many first time users or new riders end up potentially riding outside of their ability.
Rental users might be on holiday too, so that means they may be intoxiated if riding at night if they decide to scoot home instead of taxi it.
Literally all the scooter in the area of Lanzarote I was in were completely booked up from 8pm onwards from people going too and from restaurants and young ones having fun bar hopping and just cruising the strip on them.
We need to seperate out tourists and holiday makers from every day riders and commuters when it comes to devices like these. We don't have cars lining Trafalgar square with the keys left in and engines running for people to jump into when them come out of pubs ******, yet anyone can jump on a rental scooter and jack up the accident stats.
Interesting stats, I think the rental aspect is a massive factor, as per the experience in my previous post. So many first time users or new riders end up potentially riding outside of their ability.
Rental users might be on holiday too, so that means they may be intoxiated if riding at night if they decide to scoot home instead of taxi it.
Literally all the scooter in the area of Lanzarote I was in were completely booked up from 8pm onwards from people going too and from restaurants and young ones having fun bar hopping and just cruising the strip on them.
We need to seperate out tourists and holiday makers from every day riders and commuters when it comes to devices like these. We don't have cars lining Trafalgar square with the keys left in and engines running for people to jump into when them come out of pubs ******, yet anyone can jump on a rental scooter and jack up the accident stats.
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And segways etc...
Also see things like the BMW C1 - most other developed countries allowed it to be used without a helmet as it was designed (and is safer) to be used without one. In fact using a regular bike helmet with one is more dangerous and risks suffering neck injuries in a collision because the rider is strapped in. UK civil servants however just mindlessly declared that a helmet should still be worn because it is a two wheeled vehicle and the law on wearing helmets with two wheeled vehicles has been successful in general in reducing deaths/serious injuries etc... A completely silly response given the context.
Of course if you can cite "muh religion" then it is a different matter entirely - actual risk of breaking your neck is not worth considering, but some belief that the magical sky fairy doesn't want you to cut your hair = exemption from wearing a helmet.
You can do 30mph plus on a bicycle with combinations of favourable terrain, weather, traffic and physical effort.
There is no point moaning about the speed a cyclist reaches in good conditions because their speed tanks enormously when external conditions become unfavourable or they simply get fatigued.
A morbidly obese man on an electric scooter could overtake the entire tour de france peloton uphill.
Limits are imposed on motorised vehicles because it is trivial for them to be equipped with the power to reach dangerous speeds at all times.
Ebikes are a blurring of that but in this country they legally cut out assistance at 16mph so aside from reducing fatigue they can't promote 30mph+ speeds.
? Ebikes are on roads, verus e-scooter currently pavements, unless you have dedicted infrastructure proposal, like Portland.
BMW may have mis-designed C1 maybe it would have been a safer package with a helmet anticipated.
BMW may have mis-designed C1 maybe it would have been a safer package with a helmet anticipated.
seemed an impressive anlysis of how people would adapt their commuting and travel using e-scooters .. but - you need street adaptions
Soldato
In 1970 I was eighteen and was able to own and ride a 250cc six speed Japanese motorcycle capable of 90mph. On a provisional licence without even a helmet. My friends and me had many fallings off, some crashes, a few injuries and two lads died from within my particular circle.
This did not dissuade me from riding but with age and experience comes reason. Eventually as always, the legislators catch up with the technology.
This did not dissuade me from riding but with age and experience comes reason. Eventually as always, the legislators catch up with the technology.
so what is the breaking and control like on an e-scooter coming down a decline on wet pavement ?
... is it pretty much unpredictable ,you could end up anywhere (i need to look on youtube)
unlike a bicycle where you can feel the adhesion, or the back wheel go, and hopefully compensate.
... is it pretty much unpredictable ,you could end up anywhere (i need to look on youtube)
unlike a bicycle where you can feel the adhesion, or the back wheel go, and hopefully compensate.
Soldato
Off topic, but that's not correct
.A normal escooter like this one can output 300watts for 15 miles. Thomas De Gendt won stage8 of the Tour de France on saturday after averaging 311watts over the 124 mile stage.
Off topic, but that's not correct
A normal escooter like this one can output 300watts for 15 miles. Thomas De Gendt won stage8 of the Tour de France on saturday after averaging 311watts over the 124 mile stage.
On the contrary, it is as correct as I want it to be. You're specifying a scooter of 300 watts that I didn't.
Meanwhile a few pages back an electric scooter review was posted which claims 1500 watts.
Which goes back to the point you quoted a line from, comparing the limitations of self propelled cyclists to the easy excess of power that can be packed into motorised vehicles.
Soldato
It was the early 80s where a 17 year old with some saved pocket money could go from a 50cc moped restricted to 30mph to a Yamaha RD250LC capable of nearly 100mph which accelerated like a Usain Bolt treading on a land mine that caused all the trouble and the later restriction to 125cc bikes for learner motorcyclists.
There were probably more RTAs caused by 17 years olds in Astra GTEs and Peugeot 205 GTIs learning about lift-off underwater the hard way, but most of them didn’t result in a funeral like the mistakes of their two-wheeled cousins did.
They are right to have strict enforcement because there are always idiots who no amount of education, infrastructure and rider responsibility and accountability can get through to. Always someone willing to break the law when they think the law isn't looking. Much like with drones, should we wait until someone does fly one into a jet engine and cause a couple hundred deaths? Prevention is always better than cure.
I don't really have an issue with e-scooters in principle. The sensible ones are very similar to e-bikes, 250W and 15mph max speed on the flat. I would ride one to work (with a helmet) but I can't risk getting points on my licence while they remain illegal. I think I'd rather be on a scooter than a bike, its much easier to bail out in the event of a problem on a scooter than a bike.
They should be considered the same as bikes, free to ride in bike lanes and roads. The sensible ones are very similar to an 'average' cyclist in terms of speed. I'm not talking about your enthusiast covered in Lycra on drop handlebars and clip in pedals doing 30mph(+). I'm talking about a normal cyclist going about their business on a 3 speed dutch bike doing at most 15mph on the flat. Both can be done perfectly safely on city streets and cycle paths.
Care just needs to be taken like no riding up the inside of buses, lorries, using cycle lanes, defensive riding, wearing a helmet etc. I also wouldnt be against mandating a helmet but it would likely reduce take up. I would be very cautious about letting a hire scheme run though (Lime, Bird etc.). The dock less bikes are bad enough from a street litter point of view and there isn't that many of them. The TFL bikes are not too bad but they do attract a lot of inexperienced riders which shows in the standards of riding. I spent some time in California last year and Paris this year. The standard of riding was FAR higher on privately owned scooters. For instance Paris I saw 2 adults and a child on a single lime scooter and two adults on one multiple times....
The cycle lanes are getting better in London but the segregated lanes still need a serious expansion in central London (and other cities). Cities like Amsterdam put London to shame on that front. The attitudes of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians could also do with some 'tuning'. Up until recently even mopeds were permitted in cycle lanes in Amsterdam, I did think that was a bit mad...
They should be considered the same as bikes, free to ride in bike lanes and roads. The sensible ones are very similar to an 'average' cyclist in terms of speed. I'm not talking about your enthusiast covered in Lycra on drop handlebars and clip in pedals doing 30mph(+). I'm talking about a normal cyclist going about their business on a 3 speed dutch bike doing at most 15mph on the flat. Both can be done perfectly safely on city streets and cycle paths.
Care just needs to be taken like no riding up the inside of buses, lorries, using cycle lanes, defensive riding, wearing a helmet etc. I also wouldnt be against mandating a helmet but it would likely reduce take up. I would be very cautious about letting a hire scheme run though (Lime, Bird etc.). The dock less bikes are bad enough from a street litter point of view and there isn't that many of them. The TFL bikes are not too bad but they do attract a lot of inexperienced riders which shows in the standards of riding. I spent some time in California last year and Paris this year. The standard of riding was FAR higher on privately owned scooters. For instance Paris I saw 2 adults and a child on a single lime scooter and two adults on one multiple times....
The cycle lanes are getting better in London but the segregated lanes still need a serious expansion in central London (and other cities). Cities like Amsterdam put London to shame on that front. The attitudes of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians could also do with some 'tuning'. Up until recently even mopeds were permitted in cycle lanes in Amsterdam, I did think that was a bit mad...
