European Grand Prix 2010, Valencia Street Circuit - Race 9/19

[FrankJH]

even so, that doesn't correlate with 5 seconds.
.

Well it certainly looked like he lost MAX 15s during his drive through (from how far Koby was before the drive through and after)

Can't believe everyone keeps commenting about Hamilton. He broke the rule and got a drive through. If he didn't hesitate he would have not broken any rules.

Not convinced by that - although it was pretty tight I grant you.

Just like Vettel on MW in Turkey Lewis would never have been anything like fully ahead even without a hesitation, and it has always seemed like once the SC has been announced you cant overtake (although these stupid new sc lines do make it more difficult it was still well within the "grey " area lol)

However

the 9 cars did brake the rules, then FIA made 2 mistakes.
1) why was it investigated after the race, absolutely no need for this. They did not need to check the cars or anything, it did not happen in the last few laps.
2) the punishment should be the same as in the race.

I may be wrong but I understand that this infringement was for the 9 cars during their IN Lap as the safety car came out?

A few of those cars where already past the accident (a few cars had already been in and out before the cameras even cut to the pits) , so they were penalised for being past the accident (ie no safety issue) and racing in green flag zones - isnt there a rule that drivers are meant to catch the safety car as quickly as possible (exc the area of the track where the accident is) - what I mean is any car cant crawl around the track at SC speeds while being "ahead" of hte sc - ie which would give them maximum time in the pits before sc caught them .....

 

[xen_]

He was reffering to the imperial second, of approx 1.081 metric seconds.

 

[Demon]

ignore sutil completely why dont you (less than a second infront on much more heaviily used tyres) - and you said yourself that he got past Alonso because of new tyres , no reason at all why given a few more laps he could have got past Sutil (a much worse driver in a much worse car than Alonso) for the same reason

Frank, he was 6 seconds behind Sutil on the track at the end, he was handed a 5 second penalty!!!! and that's the closest he was, most of time the gap was 10-15 seconds..

from their timings it looks like Koby lost 15s on his outlap from the pits - IF he had done this on lap 50 instead he could have theoretically been out 3s AHEAD of Alonso (with the pitstop going as well as it did of course)

LOL. you really are hopeless at these things.. , you have to see the funny side.. I'll just point out the critical flaw..

if you use your logic/maths on the pitting, then if on Lap 50 you think he would have been 3s infront of alonso, when you look at the timings, when he did come into for the Pitstop he was exactly (within .050) the same distance from Alonso as on lap 50.. , so by your reckoning he should have appeared 3 seconds in front of him.

But we know that didn't happen, and the reason is, when pitting, since you are parallel with the start/finish line, your official lap times are relative to the start line, so you have to look at both in/outlaps and combine the difference. e.g. Hamilton when he did his drive through oj nlap 27/8? seemingly it only took 8 seconds if you look at only 1 lap, but looking at both shows the correct 13.5ish seconds it actually took..



With your ability to constantly get the wrong end of the numbers and badly misinterpreted analysis, I'm starting to think you are a relative of Legard (or even worse, has anyone seen FrankJH and Legard in the same room? ever?)..

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Nothing wrong with Sauber/Kobi strategy at all. If he is able to hold someone up for the whole race and maintain his position.. Where is the problem with that? How sauber race their cars is up to them.
Personally, I think it was a great drive, and it was nice to see the late overtakes when everyone else was looking after tyres/fuel.
We know how hard overtaking is, and sauber saw a window of opportunity that the hard tyres had given them. Kobi took full advantage of the laps when he had a quicker car than alonso/buemi and did a really great job...

 

[Baboonanza]

Looks like Im upsetting some by having an opinion - which seems to stack up given the figures from f1fanatic, if Ive missed something then fair enough, just dont believe I have - still think Sauber where in it for the airtime yesterday

At NO time have I said JB was capable of winning the race - but given his closing speed on LH and SV at the end he could have made a much closer battle for 1st / 2nd/ 3rd which is what we are ALL after I suspect

It's not your opinion about the actual strategy that riles people up, it's your initial statement that he ****ed up Button's (and the other members of the train) race by staying out. Which is ridiculous. He can run any strategy he likes - it's not like McLaren always run an optimal strategy after all - and it's the job of those behind him to get past.

Which is aso where your argument doesn't make any logical sense. You argue that it's unfair to hold Button up by running long on old tires, and that he should have pitted earlier to make the most of fresher tires and do more overtaking. But if his tires were so old why couldn't Button pass him? Button also has a much faster car and couldn't overtake while Koby managed to overtake Alonso (admittedly on softs, but still very impressive).

The simple fact is that Button couldn't overtake Koby even though he had newer tires on a faster car, and that's nobody's fault but his own. OTOH he didn't have any great reason to, Koby had to pit some time (though I guess McLaren were hoping it would be sooner rather than later) and he could conserve fuel while following him so that he could have a faster run at the end. Plus with his team-mate flying ahead of him there wasn't much for him to do if he got released.

Button will be very happy with his 3rd place, he was incredibly lucky with the safety car.

 

[NathanE]

The Sauber strategy definitely wasn't optimal but they were desperate for those points and they weren't sure if Koby would be competitive on the different tyres so wanted to minimise the running on them. And his pace on the well-used hard tyres was competitive so there wasn't any real reason to take the risk (no matter how small that risk was) in their eyes.

Koby got lucky when Alonso outbraked himself though, IMO. Otherwise I doubt he would have risked a more traditional overtake considering Sauber had already ****ed off Ferrari (their engine supplier) in the previous race.

 

[Mr Jack]

The Sauber strategy definitely wasn't optimal but they were desperate for those points and they weren't sure if Koby would be competitive on the different tyres so wanted to minimise the running on them. And his pace on the well-used hard tyres was competitive so there wasn't any real reason to take the risk (no matter how small that risk was) in their eyes.

They had every reason to expect that Koby wouldn't be able to pass anyone on track; staying out for as long as possible and hoping he could come out in front was the only sensible cause of action.

Koby got lucky when Alonso outbraked himself though, IMO. Otherwise I doubt he would have risked a more traditional overtake considering Sauber had already ****ed off Ferrari (their engine supplier) in the previous race.

He did get lucky, but I don't think that takes it away from him. Two passes, in quick succession, including one against one of the best drivers in one of the best cars, is damned impressive. Doubly so in a Sauber. Personally I reckon Alonso was still fuming about Lewis and that's why he made the mistake.

 

[FrankJH]

If Ive read/ worked it out wrong then fine - but it really looks like to me that Koby had around 3s advantage over Alonso on around lap 50 to come in and get out ahead after his stop

would be genuinely interested if people can tell me why this isnt the case


-all times taken from f1fanatic charts -

Im not sure why Suaber would have had an issue therefore fighting Sutil at the very least on much fresher rubber for 6 /7 laps

 

[JRS]

Regarding the whole 'did Koby hold Button up' thing - to borrow from Niki Lauda, if the driver behind doesn't like it then he can overtake or **** off. Simple as.

I'm sure McLaren thought Kamui would be coming in earlier, which is probably why Button was holding station behind him. McLaren will have been blindly following the strategies laid about by their super-duper computer back in Woking that will have told them that no-one would try going that deep into the race on their first set of tyres. I'd love to know what would have happened without the crappy 'must use both dry compounds' rule, 'cause I bet those tyres would have held up to the finish quite happily.

And as for the comments I'm seeing around the interwubs about how Heikki was completely at fault for Webber's smash - two words. BULL. ****. He tried to get out of Webber's way, Webber kept tucking in behind, Heikki hit the brakes for the corner and Webber didn't. Cue one enormous crash. I see Webber is whining about it as well. How about being upset with yourself for ruining Hekki's afternoon, Mark?

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Kobayshi did the only thing that he could have done; hold on for as long as possible in the hope he could pit and return infront of Alonso. The fact that Button couldn't get passed earlier is the bigger factor here.

As for Hamilton.. it looked like he hesitated when he saw the SC and Bert (the SC driver) floored it

I'd also pin the blame on Webber. He didn't need to slipstream the lotus, as he could have simply waited a few corners and done him on the straight.

 

[The_Abyss]

OTOH he didn't have any great reason to, Koby had to pit some time

This, plus he probably remembered how aggressive Koby could be going back to Brazil last year, and thought a more distant 3rd would be better than a 3rd running 0.2 seconds behind Hamilton.

Racing isn't just about going balls out round every corner for every lap of the race.

 

[Fanatic]

Another good race I think.

Kobayashi had a great race, although Jenson should have passed him, I reckon if it had been Alonso, Hamilton, Webber or Vettel behind they would all have been trying much harder to pass not dropping back. Nice to see Kobayashi pass Alonso near the end, reminded me of Sato at Canada 2007.

Hamilton should have just floored it down the straight and been way passed the safety car before it got the safety car line.


Edit: I think as soon as Kobayashi didn't pit when everyone else did, it should have been clear to everyone that he was going to go as long as possible on the harder tyres, Jenson should have been up his gearbox when the safety car was going in.

 

[FrankJH]

Frank, he was 6 seconds behind Sutil on the track at the end, he was handed a 5 second penalty!!!! and that's the closest he was, most of time the gap was 10-15 seconds..

he was 0.8s behind at the end , see either F1fanatic or the bbc site both say the same

if you use your logic/maths on the pitting, then if on Lap 50 you think he would have been 3s infront of alonso, when you look at the timings, when he did come into for the Pitstop he was exactly (within .050) the same distance from Alonso as on lap 50.. , so by your reckoning he should have appeared 3 seconds in front of him.

he was about 15s behind the leaders on the 50th lap - and his pitstop /outlap took 15s longer than normal.......with Alonso 33s+ down the road

Tell me why that logic doesnt work without being childish please

But we know that didn't happen, and the reason is, when pitting, since you are parallel with the start/finish line, your official lap times are relative to the start line, so you have to look at both in/outlaps and combine the difference. e.g. Hamilton when he did his drive through oj nlap 27/8? seemingly it only took 8 seconds if you look at only 1 lap, but looking at both shows the correct 13.5ish seconds it actually took..

To be fair there is no reason at all to actually look at the in lap (unless traffic got in the way) as this would be the same (plus a little because of the fractional more fuel in the tank) because it would be the same anyway

By the times being shown for lap 50 and lap 53 , there was no traffic so that wasnt an issue, and he wasnt being held up by Lewis.....

With your ability to constantly get the wrong end of the numbers and badly misinterpreted analysis, I'm starting to think you are a relative of Legard (or even worse, has anyone seen FrankJH and Legard in the same room? ever?)..

So far the only person to get things wrong is you!!!

 

[pingwing]

Regarding the whole 'did Koby hold Button up' thing - to borrow from Niki Lauda, if the driver behind doesn't like it then he can overtake or **** off. Simple as.

And as for the comments I'm seeing around the interwubs about how Heikki was completely at fault for Webber's smash - two words. BULL. ****. He tried to get out of Webber's way, Webber kept tucking in behind, Heikki hit the brakes for the corner and Webber didn't. Cue one enormous crash. I see Webber is whining about it as well. How about being upset with yourself for ruining Hekki's afternoon, Mark?

Kobayshi did the only thing that he could have done; hold on for as long as possible in the hope he could pit and return infront of Alonso. The fact that Button couldn't get passed earlier is the bigger factor here.

Yep, Yep, Yep! Solves all arguments on Webber and Kobayshi. Webber at fault for not realising that if he had the slightist bit of patience he could have been past hekki a corner later or that corner if he was driving sensibly.

As for Kobayshi, fair play to him and the Sauber team. He started 17th and came 7th by running the optimum strategy for the race considering the incidents, as he has shown that track position is just as valuable as being fast. Without the safety car I really doubt he had the pace to get so high up the order, a more realistic result would have been where Pedro ended up on the edge of the top ten. JSR is 100% right with the Lauda quote there, Button ruined his race by not forcing a move on Kobayshi and 3rd is all he deserved at most.

 

[FrankJH]

It's not your opinion about the actual strategy that riles people up, it's your initial statement that he ****ed up Button's (and the other members of the train) race by staying out. Which is ridiculous. He can run any strategy he likes - it's not like McLaren always run an optimal strategy after all - and it's the job of those behind him to get past.

.

Sauber *****d up their own race - I still think they could have got at least 2 points more by coming in 2 or 3 laps earlier and using their 2nd set of tyres more optimally (as mentioned by others in the last page or so)


you cant overtake (unless someone makes a mistake like Alonso) without being 3 or 4 seconds a lap faster in the current cars because of the aero / mechanical balance currently in the designs/rules

I have clearly stated how I believe SAUBER didnt get as many points as they could have done - and it has little to do with McLaren but everyone still comes back to the same thing - -sigh

 

[FreeStream]

I liked it when he said "almost quarter of a second faster" when the actual figure on screen was "+0.270" or something, which is of course over 1/4 of a second.

Personally I can't see the problem with it, people make mistakes, so be it.

Some people are overly critical to be honest, don't like it? Ignore it, quite simple really.

And I love the people commenting on teams strategies sometimes, forgetting they teams of people and computers calculating the best way, they don't employ idiots ffs, stuff like McLarens tyre choices a while back or whatever that cost hamilton lots of time happens, but if Sauber decided to keep him out that long then there was certainly a reason for it!

As for the race overall, it was average, I turned off to watch the England match buildup personally on a few occasions...

Also Ferrari need to shove a sock in it, their complaining really gets on my nerves!

 

[utajoker]

I like how Ferrari claim fia helped Hamilton to 2nd, ofcourse they never benifit from the fia.

 

[Glaucus]

I may be wrong but I understand that this infringement was for the 9 cars during their IN Lap as the safety car came out?

A few of those cars where already past the accident (a few cars had already been in and out before the cameras even cut to the pits) , so they were penalised for being past the accident (ie no safety issue) and racing in green flag zones - isnt there a rule that drivers are meant to catch the safety car as quickly as possible (exc the area of the track where the accident is) - what I mean is any car cant crawl around the track at SC speeds while being "ahead" of hte sc - ie which would give them maximum time in the pits before sc caught them .....

Yes it was for the in lap and in this case they where past the accident. But that doesn't mean it is always lie that. Not taht it makes any diffrence a rule is a rule. it is a perfectly sensible rule, which can be dealt with in the race.

No, they get a target lap time and they can also be penalised for going to slowly, not sure if there is a set time for that though.

Well it certainly looked like he lost MAX 15s during his drive through (from how far Koby was before the drive through and after)

which again does not compare to the 5seconds given.

A lot of the stops where around 19/20 seconds, which includes the 3-5 seconds for the tyre changes.

 

[sunama]

Racing isn't just about going balls out round every corner for every lap of the race.

Try telling that to Hamilton.

 

[DBT85]

Try telling that to Hamilton.

I think Button did!