European Grand Prix 2011, Valencia Street Circuit - Race 8/19

clv101 · 29 Jun 2011 at 10:22

Skeeter said:
Most wins is 13 (from 18, so 72%) (Schumacher)

Vettel's won 6 out of 8, so 75% it's possible. However I have a hard time accepting that the others won't close that gap a bit.

Interestingly Webber not only has no wins, but he's also only got one second place! If it was all the car, we'd at least expect to see Webber picking up the second places. Red Bull have only had a single one-two finish (Turkey).

Compare that with 2009, where like Seb, Button won six of the first eight races. The difference being Barrichello clocked up three second places.

Also note, after Button's six wins out of eight - he only stood on the podium twice more in the following nine races, never on the top.

Skeeter · 29 Jun 2011 at 10:33

clv101 said:
Vettel's won 6 out of 8, so 75% it's possible. However I have a hard time accepting that the others won't close that gap a bit
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Also note, after Button's six wins out of eight - he only stood on the podium twice more in the following nine races, never on the top.

These 2 points are somewhat contradicting. Yes, its likely that the others will close the gap, but as Button showed in 2009, you can have a terrible second half to a season, but providing you had an awesome first half, you can still win the title. Something has to go seriously wrong for Vettel for him to not win this title. Even if he didn't turn up for the next 3 races and Button won all 3 of them, Vettel would still have the lead in the championship. Finishing in the points for the rest of the season will be enough. For him to loose it, he needs to start not finishing at all (when was the last time that happened? Korea last year?).

Zuban · 29 Jun 2011 at 10:39

has anyone seens the videos of mclarens front wing flexiness from valencia? thought everything had gone a bit quiet on the car contraversy front lol.

scarbs has some info on his blog

Skeeter · 29 Jun 2011 at 10:43

Yeah. I wouldn't expect much tbh. Just expect the FIA to (rightly) tighten up checks on wings separating at connecting points under load.

The biggest shock to me of this whole thing is that if it is a deliberate flexing attempt by McLaren, why did they leave the onboard cameras in a position that clearly shows it? Bit of a school boy error.

dannyjo22 · 29 Jun 2011 at 10:58

I'm not sure how much of this year is Vettel raising his game or Webber losing is. To me sometimes he sounds like a beaten man, as if last year took so much out of him. It's probably a bit of both and starting the season with little luck hasn't helped either.

I'm sure they do the KERs updates and testing on webbers car

clv101 · 29 Jun 2011 at 11:02

Skeeter said:
clv101 said:

Vettel's won 6 out of 8, so 75% it's possible. However I have a hard time accepting that the others won't close that gap a bit.
-------
Also note, after Button's six wins out of eight - he only stood on the podium twice more in the following nine races, never on the top.

Click to expand...

These 2 points are somewhat contradicting. Yes, its likely that the others will close the gap, but as Button showed in 2009, you can have a terrible second half to a season, but providing you had an awesome first half, you can still win the title. Something has to go seriously wrong for Vettel for him to not win this title. Even if he didn't turn up for the next 3 races and Button won all 3 of them, Vettel would still have the lead in the championship. Finishing in the points for the rest of the season will be enough. For him to loose it, he needs to start not finishing at all (when was the last time that happened? Korea last year?).

Eh? Where's the contradiction? Who's talking about the title? Not me.

My point is that whilst Vettel is on target to beat Schumacher's 72%, Button's season shows how fortunes can change. Button went from the same 75% that Vettel has now, to finish the season with just 6/17 wins or 35%.

Skeeter · 29 Jun 2011 at 11:08

Sorry, I meant those 2 statements were contradicting each other in the possible situations they could provide later in the season. I wasn't aiming it at you or your opinion. I was just highlighting that a big change in fortune for Vettel would not mean he doesn't win the title, as proved by Button. He will need a very big change in fortune. Sorry if it came across wrong.

Guerrilla · 29 Jun 2011 at 11:31

dannyjo22 said:
I'm not sure how much of this year is Vettel raising his game or Webber losing is. To me sometimes he sounds like a beaten man, as if last year took so much out of him. It's probably a bit of both and starting the season with little luck hasn't helped either.

I'm sure they do the KERs updates and testing on webbers car

Do feel like Webber isn't anywhere near Vettel some weekends, as has been said though apparently Vettel is finding the new tyres and regs a lot more comfortable than Webber... Webber's terrible luck seems to be continuing also

Setroc · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:37

Skeeter said:
Sorry, I meant those 2 statements were contradicting each other in the possible situations they could provide later in the season. I wasn't aiming it at you or your opinion. I was just highlighting that a big change in fortune for Vettel would not mean he doesn't win the title, as proved by Button. He will need a very big change in fortune. Sorry if it came across wrong.

This is a good point. You also need to add to that the fact that in Button's championship season Vettel was the only real competition. This year, even if Vettel has a big change in fortune, you are going to have Button, Alonso, and Hamilton all fighting with each other when the only way to win would be to come first in a very large quantity of races.

sunama · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:42

Vettel is just on fantastic form. Plain and simple.

The one mistake he has made this season was when he was pushed by arguably the best wet weather driver currently in F1.

I think he has dropped only 14 points so far this season. Drivers like Alonso and Hamilton have already given up on the title, before half the season is over. I can't remember the last time I read something like that (main rivals giving up before half the season).

The only way to stop him is to prevent him from leading on lap1 and then hope that he either gets bogged down (which he is susceptible to) or he gets involved in an accident. I think most people are now hoping that the slight change in rules at Silverstone will effect RBR; from what Hamilton said after the last race, I'm not sure if the rule change is going to change anything.

In order to see a genuine championship battle, Vettel must be kept of the podium for the remainder of the season and based on the last 8 races, I can't see how that can happen.

If it wasn't for DRS and Pirelli tyres, this season would've been boring. I do find it amazing that RBR have managed to maintain their form so well over the course of the last 24 months. As a team they absolutely fantastic. Other teams would do well to steal some of their key personnel away.

Skeeter · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:49

Vettel will win this championship because of his performances on Saturdays. Nobody knows if he is a good fighter in a race or not, as he simply hasn't had to prove it. He qualifies at the front, and then spends Sunday afternoon staying there. His ability to nail Lap 1 while others are fighting for position means he has been in control of almost every race from start to finish.

Glaucus · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:51

clv101 said:
Eh? Where's the contradiction? Who's talking about the title? Not me.

My point is that whilst Vettel is on target to beat Schumacher's 72%, Button's season shows how fortunes can change. Button went from the same 75% that Vettel has now, to finish the season with just 6/17 wins or 35%.

However brawn GP had no funding and no upgrades, so it's a little difference.

Glaucus · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:53

Skeeter said:
Vettel will win this championship because of his performances on Saturdays. Nobody knows if he is a good fighter in a race or not, as he simply hasn't had to prove it. He qualifies at the front, and then spends Sunday afternoon staying there. His ability to nail Lap 1 while others are fighting for position means he has been in control of almost every race from start to finish.

It would be interesting to see him in a rubbish car just like what Lewis had, Lewis managed to haul the the god awful mclaren up to the front end was it 2009? Would be interesting to see how vetttle compared. It's the same as Alonso who can haul a crap car above what it's capable of.

Skeeter · 29 Jun 2011 at 12:57

I agree. But then the 2009 McLaren was saved party though the teams effort and partly through the driver.

What I would like to see is a messed up Qualifying where Vettel starts 19th and Hamilton starts 20th, and then see who does best. Hamilton, Button, Alonso, and Webber have all been in this situation one or many times, and shown great skill. We need to see Vettel do it to prove he has that skill too.

EDIT: Anyone else noticed that none of us are mentioning Massa any more?

clv101 · 29 Jun 2011 at 14:18

Skeeter said:
EDIT: Anyone else noticed that none of us are mentioning Massa any more?

Maybe 'cos he's only got 42 points and hasn't finished higher than 5th this year!

JRS · 29 Jun 2011 at 14:40

Skeeter said:
EDIT: Anyone else noticed that none of us are mentioning Massa any more?

Why bother? We know from Germany last year that even if he was to be on terms with his team-mate and other front-runners during a race weekend, Ferrari will simply move him aside to get Alonso past him. And he's not likely to be able to get into that position in the first place since Ferrari concentrate their efforts on the other side of the garage.

sunama · 29 Jun 2011 at 14:43

JRS said:
... since Ferrari concentrate their efforts on the other side of the garage.

But if you were Ferrari team boss, wouldn't you also be concentrating your efforts on Alonso's side of the garage?

It's a tried and proved method of winning.

Concentrate all your efforts on 1 driver and usually, both titles (WDC/WCC) follow.

It worked for MSc at Bennetton and Ferrari.
It worked for Alonso in 2005/6.
It worked for Hamilton in 2008.
It worked for RBR in 2010 and continues to work for Vettel in 2011.

Ferrari's strategy cannot be faulted - hire the best driver in F1 then focus all your efforts around him.

JRS · 29 Jun 2011 at 14:52

sunama said:
But if you were Ferrari team boss, wouldn't you also be concentrating your efforts on Alonso's side of the garage?

Aren't you the one that wants to see Alonso paired with Hamilton again? You'd have them favour one driver over the other in that partnership? Tough choice of which one to give the leg-up....The Messiah™ or The Daddy™....

Or is the desire to see that partnership simply for the fireworks, rather than it being good Grand Prix racing?

utajoker · 29 Jun 2011 at 15:11

JRS said:
....The Messiah™ or The Daddy™....

what are vettel and buttons nick names?

sunama · 29 Jun 2011 at 15:14

JRS said:
Or is the desire to see that partnership simply for the fireworks, rather than it being good Grand Prix racing?

Both.

I love it when 2 top class drivers are in the same team.

Senna - Prost
Prost - Mansell
Hamilton - Alonso

When 2 top tier drivers drive for the same team, it invariably results in vitriol and personal hatred...each overtake between those 2 drivers means so much more than just a gain in race position.

I loved 2007.