Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Secret_Window · 5 Jul 2018 at 06:58

Malevolence said:
Of course it's ******* Russia. They poisoned the Skripals and in the process of carrying out that operation they've left God knows how much contamination behind.

Occam's razor.

Jokester said:
It’s also distinctly possible that this is an attempt by Russia to create plausible deniability. You can bet your top dollar Russia will now claim this is clear evidence that Porton Down has leaked the chemical out into public.

Or maybe, just maybe, it wasn't Russia....?

I will wait for further evidence, but seems absurd to do it at the peak of the world cup if you ask me.

Malevolence · 5 Jul 2018 at 07:04

Secret_Window said:
Or maybe, just maybe, it wasn't Russia....?

I will wait for further evidence, but seems absurd to do it at the peak of the world cup if you ask me.

Seriously? You think that these two people should've waited until after the World Cup to accidentally come into contact with some contamination? How does that work then?

Secret_Window · 5 Jul 2018 at 07:18

Malevolence said:
Seriously? You think that these two people should've waited until after the World Cup to accidentally come into contact with some contamination? How does that work then?

Seriously you think these people would only just now come into contact with the nerve agent during the peak of the world cup?

Look, I don't 100% know, and neither do you. But I don't trust our media or our government as much as I used to anymore. There are probably a hundred different reasons why the timing of this this happening now might be helpful for our government.

Maybe I'm just ******* naive, but after the amount of rubbish I have read in the media lately from the amount of scandals constantly from this government, as well as the deliberate lying, I just don't believe it all very easily anymore without a degree of suspicion.

Orionaut · 5 Jul 2018 at 08:21

Tefal said:
Possible they came upon some discarded remnant from the attack?

As others have said, I doubt if anything on the outside of a syringe would still be active, but anything inside could well still be.

The original assassins would have needed a means of transporting and applying the compound and a syringe would be a good way of doing so.

Most people coming across a discarded syringe in a park would keep well away from it But, druggies being druggies, probably investigated further and suffered the consequences.

Felon · 5 Jul 2018 at 08:40

Secret_Window said:
Seriously you think these people would only just now come into contact with the nerve agent during the peak of the world cup?

Look, I don't 100% know, and neither do you. But I don't trust our media or our government as much as I used to anymore. There are probably a hundred different reasons why the timing of this this happening now might be helpful for our government.

Maybe I'm just ******* naive, but after the amount of rubbish I have read in the media lately from the amount of scandals constantly from this government, as well as the deliberate lying, I just don't believe it all very easily anymore without a degree of suspicion.

Look at the reality of the situation;

On the one hand - you have the Russian government, who are world class pros at deleting people who've upset them, from spies to political opponents - it's a matter of fact that Russia has been knocking them off, it's something they're well known for.

On the other hand - Here in the UK we have a political establishment, that is absolutely falling to bits, ridden with utter incompetence. Comprised of individuals that more closely resemble cattle in a field than human beings, all totally consumed by the Brexit project. Unable to operate with any coherence, unable to march in step, unable to deliver anything of value for anyone.

In my opinion, it's literally almost impossible, for our government to pull off a conspiracy theory like this, they simply don't have the power to do it, these people could **** up a cup of coffee, never mind orchestrate a conspiracy theory as difficult as this.

This is all the work of Russia, with no other serious competing theory - it can't really be anyone else, it has all the hallmarks, they also have the motive - when you look the evidence it is the most likely and reasonable explanation.

It's also entirely possible in my view, that this could be an attempt at plausible deniability. It could also be an attempt to disrupt our participation in the world cup, by causing enough disruption and upset to throw our system into chaos and possibly hurt our chances.

Jono8 · 5 Jul 2018 at 08:47

Secret_Window said:
Or maybe, just maybe, it wasn't Russia....?
.

It was Russia.

Secret_Window · 5 Jul 2018 at 08:49

Screeeech said:
Look at the reality of the situation;

On the one hand - you have the Russian government, who are world class pros at deleting people who've upset them, from spies to political opponents - it's a matter of fact that Russia has been knocking them off, it's something they're well known for.

On the other hand - Here in the UK we have a political establishment, that is absolutely falling to bits, ridden with utter incompetence. Comprised of individuals that more closely resemble cattle in a field than human beings, all totally consumed by the Brexit project. Unable to operate with any coherence, unable to march in step, unable to deliver anything of value for anyone.

In my opinion, it's literally almost impossible, for our government to pull off a conspiracy theory like this, they simply don't have the power to do it, these people could **** up a cup of coffee, never mind orchestrate a conspiracy theory as difficult as this.

This is all the work of Russia, with no other serious competing theory - it can't really be anyone else, it has all the hallmarks, they also have the motive - when you look the evidence it is the most likely and reasonable explanation.

It's also entirely possible in my view, that this could be an attempt at plausible deniability. It could also be an attempt to disrupt our participation in the world cup, by causing enough disruption and upset to throw our system into chaos and possibly hurt our chances.

Okay, that is also a plausible alternative, but what about Trump's meeting with Putin - could this not also be the work of someone working from the US to sabotage that from within?

azazl187 · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:05

I can tell you one thing. It certainly isnt nice living here right now, my wife and two children were on in that very park 2 days ago. Its coming upto the school holidays and the parks will be filled with family's. Lets just hope that this is a "hangover" from the original attack and its the only one.

Its a bit of a worry tbh.

gettothechopper · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:24

azazl187 said:
I can tell you one thing. It certainly isnt nice living here right now, my wife and two children were on in that very park 2 days ago. Its coming upto the school holidays and the parks will be filled with family's. Lets just hope that this is a "hangover" from the original attack and its the only one.

Its a bit of a worry tbh.

I drive through on my way to work every day, we used to go into Salisbury a lot at weekends, but I havent since the poisoning, having a young child certainly puts me right off

mmj_uk · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:34

Jono8 said:
It was Russia.

Assuming Russia did want him dead why would they use a nerve agent and cause an international incident, during a time when they're already being demonised/sanctioned, when they could just arrange a simple suicide for him and nobody would be non-the-wiser? the most obvious/sensible theory is that it was a framing by another country/player. Most police investigators worth their salt will tell you that when a murder is committed and looks way too obvious/sloppy chances are it's a framing.

azazl187 · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:35

gettothechopper said:
I drive through on my way to work every day, we used to go into Salisbury a lot at weekends, but I havent since the poisoning, having a young child certainly puts me right off

I live just outside in Wilton but i work in Salisbury and my kids go to school there.

The Running Man · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:37

mmj_uk said:
Assuming Russia did want him dead why would they use a nerve agent and cause an international incident, during a time when they're already being demonised/sanctioned, when they could just arrange a simple suicide for him and nobody would be non-the-wiser? the most obvious/sensible theory is that it was a framing by another country/player. Most police investigators worth their salt will tell you that when a murder is committed and looks way too obvious/sloppy chances are it's a framing.

Because it sends a message to other Russian defectors/traitors etc

Jono8 · 5 Jul 2018 at 09:42

mmj_uk said:
The most obvious/sensible theory is that it was a framing by another country/player.

haha.

Panos · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:01

Jokester said:
It’s also distinctly possible that this is an attempt by Russia to create plausible deniability. You can bet your top dollar Russia will now claim this is clear evidence that Porton Down has leaked the chemical out into public.

Seriously? Why the animals at the park weren't contaminated dying by the droves all these months if the stuff were there?

The Running Man said:
Because it sends a message to other Russian defectors/traitors etc

You forget the backtracking of Bojo a week later saying that he never blamed Russia?

KillBoY_UK · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:08

Panos said:
Seriously? Why the animals at the park weren't contaminated dying by the droves all these months if the stuff were there?

You forget the backtracking of Bojo a week later saying that he never blamed Russia?

Do we need to go over this again? its just going to repeat what was already mentioned in the thread and without significant new information peoples minds/opinions are not going to change. So again why go over it ?

Panos · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:08

Seems I agree @KillBoY_UK
Wtf is going on in here. Are some on highs?
Porton Down official report is that the agent was of unknown origin and loosely linked to Novichok.
Boris has withdrew officially all accusations against Russia stating that everything is unknown.

Yet today going all over again, forgetting the previous statements?

ubersonic · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:17

Screeeech said:
In my opinion, it's literally almost impossible, for our government to pull off a conspiracy theory like this, they simply don't have the power to do it, these people could **** up a cup of coffee, never mind orchestrate a conspiracy theory as difficult as this.

This is all the work of Russia, with no other serious competing theory - it can't really be anyone else, it has all the hallmarks, they also have the motive - when you look the evidence it is the most likely and reasonable explanation.

This pretty much sums everything up in a nutshell.

Felon · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:24

mmj_uk said:
Assuming Russia did want him dead why would they use a nerve agent and cause an international incident, during a time when they're already being demonised/sanctioned, when they could just arrange a simple suicide for him and nobody would be non-the-wiser? the most obvious/sensible theory is that it was a framing by another country/player. Most police investigators worth their salt will tell you that when a murder is committed and looks way too obvious/sloppy chances are it's a framing.

Not really.

They have a solid motive; It sends a powerful message to would-be-spies, or anyone who would act against the interests of the Russian government - it doesn't matter where you go, or who you're protected by - we will kill you in the end.

Don't forget we're talking about an agency who murder political opponents, activists, spies - anyone, without batting an eyelid - when questioned, the retort is "We don't know anything about that" it fits the pattern of Russian behaviour that's well documented and known.

If it was framed by someone to make it look like it was the Russians who did it, then how did they come into possession of the Novichok nerve agent? It's not exactly the sort of thing you can just get hold of if you speak to a few blokes in the pub.

ubersonic · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:36

Sadly there's quite a lot of crazy theories out there and even more crazy people to believe them.

The best one I've heard somebody peddling so far, is that it was a false flag attack perpetrated by Russian oligarchs with stock in Russian aircraft companies in order to frame their own country, damage relations with the rest and drive up F-35 sales to boost their profits xD

Danny75 · 5 Jul 2018 at 10:58

Evangelion said:
I have been unable to confirm the veracity of this claim. Zero Hedge said it was reported by RBB, but their link to the RBB article is dead.

I've googled the statement from the BND quoted in the Zero Hedge article, but can't find an original source. Every hit returns links to articles from Russian media and fringe sites, none of which contain a direct link to RBB or the BND. So they're all basically quoting each other.

This is the statement according to Zero Hedge:

This is the url to the alleged RBB story, provided by RT and Zero Hedge. As you can see, it's a 404.

So until someone can provide me with a verifiable link to a RBB source and/or a BND source, I cannot take this claim seriously.

The taggeschau.de article I posted actually includes Michael Gotschenberg's radio audio.

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/skripal-159.html

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/politikimradio/audio-56977.html - Berlin still has no evidence from London
Michael Götschenberg, RBB, ARD Berlin
07.06.18 07:31 | 2'56