Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Soldato
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The best one I've heard somebody peddling so far, is that it was a false flag attack perpetrated by Russian oligarchs with stock in Russian aircraft companies in order to frame their own country, damage relations with the rest and drive up F-35 sales to boost their profits xD

lol that's a good one.

The only bit that puzzles me about this latest incident, is whether it had anything to do with the world cup or not, in terms of causing huge political disruption that would ultimately leak into the world cup and disrupt it somehow. Or whether it was just a coincidence and the couple affected had by pure bad-luck come across the remnants of the delivery device/object, in the park - that was used against the Skripals.
 
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Russia attempting to kill random British citizens on British soil.... really?? naa no way.

Help ma bob if that turns out to be true then ... ouch, Putin is not that stupid, i dont think he wants Nato to come knocking on his door.
 
Soldato
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Berlin still has no evidence from London
Michael Götschenberg, RBB, ARD Berlin
Technically speaking the UK did give Germany access to the evidence, the fact Merkel didn't share it with this Michael Götschenberg is more Germany's problem than ours. Sounds like he's sad that he's not important enough to be party to high level stuff lol.
 
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This is one problem with the sense of entitlement people have today, especially for information and media.

If someone doesn't get an official answer to a question, (because y'know - it might be sensitive, or subject to all manner of controls or be a secret) they start crying that everything is false, or there's no evidence.

People forget that governments do need to be able to keep secrets and strategise, just because some journalist with a big mouth didn't get an answer to his question, doesn't make everything null and void.
 
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Assuming Russia did want him dead why would they use a nerve agent and cause an international incident, during a time when they're already being demonised/sanctioned, when they could just arrange a simple suicide for him and nobody would be non-the-wiser? the most obvious/sensible theory is that it was a framing by another country/player. Most police investigators worth their salt will tell you that when a murder is committed and looks way too obvious/sloppy chances are it's a framing.


To send a message.

Same reason they used polonium to kill litvinyenko.

No point killing a soy as a warning to others about the dangers of cooperating with the enemy if no one knows you did it

Most police investigators worth their salt will tell you that when a murder is committed and looks way too obvious/sloppy chances are it's a framing.


Hahaha no they won't because life isn't a tv show where people routinely murder somone simply to frame somone else.

Can you even name one time its happened?
 
Soldato
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In my opinion, it's literally almost impossible, for our government to pull off a conspiracy theory like this, they simply don't have the power to do it, these people could **** up a cup of coffee, never mind orchestrate a conspiracy theory as difficult as this.


They wouldn't have the strength to stand up to the darkest elements in the establishment, either. There's just one man in the government with limited oversight on intelligence operations including the committing of crimes on UK territory. And because he'll be subject to the Official Secrets Act, he cannot regularly inform the public of all the shenanigans, which would present an interesting juxtaposition to the "Russian behavioral patterns" we hear about so much.

Spy chiefs briefed Theresa May on their belief it was Russia. Media then leaked MI5's expectation that Theresa May would blame Russia in her March 12th statement, or show weakness. Theresa May, who had called for not jumping to conclusions, then blamed Russia. The UK has a huge problem with its black ops element not being under heel of government for decades. We all know what happens when any group is left to operate in the dark for too long, without any light shined on it.


Technically speaking the UK did give Germany access to the evidence, the fact Merkel didn't share it with this Michael Götschenberg is more Germany's problem than ours. Sounds like he's sad that he's not important enough to be party to high level stuff lol.

I think you're trying too hard to hold onto the lame duck that actual evidence was presented to allies, and spinning something actually quite simple to understand - Gotschenberg is reporting on the June findings of a parliamentary oversight committee with additional BND input, like a good reporter. Neither the oversight committee nor the BND have refuted what he said publicly on RBB radio, indicating they are happy for him to have done so (even if Merkel may not be, because she authorized diplomat expulsions without actual evidence and she's already in a heap of trouble in several ways).
 
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The UK has a huge problem with its black ops element not being under heel of government for decades.


Errrr do we?
And how would you know there is a huge problem with rogue UK black ops if the govenrment doesn't even know?


Care to fill us in on the "huge" problem?
 
Soldato
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Not really because we know for a fact it was, and not just that but the evidence was so conclusive it satisfied everyone who saw it.

Inaccurate. Austrian Foreign Minister Karin Kneissl stated on March 27 that Austria had not been shown satisfactory evidence of Russia's role in the Skripal incident, and mentioned British unhappiness that their "evidence" did not convince them, and British diplomatic pressure upon Austria. And the Czech President also stated he hadn't been shown any facts.

As for "everyone else", you are assuming it was conclusive for them, and ignoring that it may have been the easy thing to do politically.


Errrr do we?
And how would you know there is a huge problem with rogue UK black ops if the govenrment doesn't even know?


Care to fill us in on the "huge" problem?

Let's go with a fresh example - extraordinary renditions and torture. Do you believe government instructed MI6 to do this?

How about the Libyan suspect in the Manchester bombing. Did government instruct MI5 to make him an intelligence asset instead of dealing with him as a threat?

How about no troops in Syria but actually yes some troops in Syria?

Did government instruct Le Mesurier to create the White Helmets? Or did Le Mesurier create them and only afterwards ask for UK government money for a terrorist outfit he'd handily re-invented as a brave paramedic outfit?

Every now and then, a minister in government or in opposition, wakes up one day and realizes there is practically no oversight and makes attempts to rectify this, and they bump into a brick wall. They realize the tail can wag the dog and probably is wagging the dog.

Religious faith is required in their goodness (good behaviour of all members of intelligence), because nobody else can guarantee it at present. This doesn't mean there's nobody in intelligence with good intentions, some do go in because they want the challenge, or to serve their country in the security field. But these will have no knowledge of black ops and psy ops stuff going on. Guys (or girls) with a conscience aren't exactly the best candidates for inclusion into black ops units.

It also doesn't mean that everything should be disclosed to everyone. But there is an intense need for more ministers (voted in by the public) to have oversight of black/psy ops, than just one person who's a Lord and not an MP, and thinks that the revelation of his role as single overseer, is "oversight". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5452695/British-MI5-agents-allowed-commit-crimes.html
 
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Wheres your evidence bruh.
If you cast your mind back, after the attack the UK government shared it's evidence with numerous skeptical allies and the opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn, the evidence was good enough to convince all of them.

Are you really trying to claim that classified information doesn't really exist because you're not allowed to see it? lol.
 
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If you cast your mind back, after the attack the UK government shared it's evidence with numerous skeptical allies and the opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn, the evidence was good enough to convince all of them.

Are you really trying to claim that classified information doesn't really exist because you're not allowed to see it? lol.

I'm saying it's not worth full abandonment of critical thought.
 
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If I take anything from this saga it's that this novichok stuff ain't all that it's cracked up to be. Gimme a gun or a garrotte any day. All its done so far is put Salisbury off the average tourist's map and given the papers some dramatic headlines.
 
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They wouldn't have the strength to stand up to the darkest elements in the establishment, either. There's just one man in the government with limited oversight on intelligence operations including the committing of crimes on UK territory. And because he'll be subject to the Official Secrets Act, he cannot regularly inform the public of all the shenanigans, which would present an interesting juxtaposition to the "Russian behavioral patterns" we hear about so much.

So if it's all a conspiracy theory, and part of one big false flag operation spanning multiple governments and countries, please provide the motive - why is the UK government complicit in not only performing these acts, but also - against it's own people on it's own soil. Why is it doing these things? Why is it taking the risk? What does it have to gain from operating in this manner?

Secondly, explain how a government that ***** up in every possible way, at every possible opportunity (can't even fake it's own expense claims, or puts a foreign secretary on TV who single-handedly condemns a woman to rot in an Iranian Jail by accident, and countless other examples) is suddenly able to cast all that to one side, before successfully pulling of what would amount to, an absolutely unprecedented act of attempted murder, treason, betrayal, against it's own citizens never witnessed before, which would end it's own destruction.

You see what I'm getting at, in order for your theory to stack up - you have to be able to accept some crazy possibilities without any critical thought at all, as soon as you apply critical thought - compare it to reality and ask the question "is this really plausible?" the whole thing becomes nonsense.
 
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If I take anything from this saga it's that this novichok stuff ain't all that it's cracked up to be. Gimme a gun or a garrotte any day. All its done so far is put Salisbury off the average tourist's map and given the papers some dramatic headlines.
Novichok is exactly what it's cracked up to be. If these poisonings really happend, the Skripals would be dead.
It's this whole situation that isn't what it's cracked up to be, it's a demonizing capaign against Russia, pure lies from the UK government.
 
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Novichok is exactly what it's cracked up to be. If these poisonings really happend, the Skripals would be dead.
It's this whole situation that isn't what it's cracked up to be, it's a demonizing capaign against Russia, pure lies from the UK government.

Nope - as has been mentioned several times many Novichok variants are designed for final assembly from precursors in the field (makes it safer for handling until needed and easier to smuggle into places, etc.) and that can have a big impact on the potency in actual use versus on paper when assembled fully in a lab.
 
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This doesn't mean there's nobody in intelligence with good intentions, some do go in because they want the challenge, or to serve their country in the security field. But these will have no knowledge of black ops and psy ops stuff going on. Guys (or girls) with a conscience aren't exactly the best candidates for inclusion into black ops units.

LOL

so people with the appropriate clearance actually working in civilian or military intelligence units/organisations won't know about the "black ops" stuff going on, if they're good guys.... but someone on the internet who has read some conspiracy sites will learn all about them? :D
 
Soldato
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So if it's all a conspiracy theory, and part of one big false flag operation spanning multiple governments and countries, please provide the motive - why is the UK government complicit in not only performing these acts, but also - against it's own people on it's own soil. Why is it doing these things?

Secondly, explain how a government that ***** up in every possible way, at every possible opportunity (can't even fake it's own expense claims, or puts a foreign secretary on TV who single-handedly condemns a woman to rot in an Iranian Jail by accident, and countless other examples) is suddenly able to cast all that to one side, before successfully pulling of what would amount to, an absolutely unprecedented act of attempted murder, treason, betrayal, never witnessed before, which would end it's own destruction.

You see what I'm getting at, in order for your theory to stack up - you have to be able to accept some crazy possibilities without any critical thought at all, as soon as you apply critical thought - compare it to reality and ask the question "is this really plausible?" the whole thing becomes nonsense.

In this regard, members of government don't have to pull off anything, other than jump when told to, and run with a story, believe what they are told to believe, react how they are briefed to react, and qualify it all to cover their ***** with "highly likely". They have free will not to, but that'd mean raising their head above the parapet. And that's where I'd agree with you on this government and most governments - they are rubbish and don't have backbone or understanding of what they are getting into when they enter politics until it's too late, so they tend to go along with the narrative created for them. Remember as well that MI5 will have all the **** on them and nobody is squeaky clean. Or, if they are now, everyone has a past.

As for the question about possible motives, plenty have been offered in this thread (back in the day) already. Including that there are those in NATO countries who hate Russia with a passion, for not bending over and letting them do as they please, and seeking a multi-polar world, instead of accepting uni-polar NATO domination. Assad must go versus the will of the Syrian people must be respected. Russia annexed Crimea versus NATO organised a coup in Ukraine which not all of Ukraine accepted, including Crimea which historically was and felt Russian. So there are those who want to hurt Russia's reputation, transmit the image that their morals leave a lot to be desired, damage them financially with sanctions, raise doubts over whether Russia destroyed all its chemical weapon stockpiles when time is approaching for the US to finally do the same... and possibly bring all this crap up again during the World Cup, using two human guinea pigs that will provide even more information about Novichok and its effects on humans, to interested parties. Who to pick? How about two heroin addicts? When to do it? Well not on the first day of the World Cup, too damn obvious. Wait a bit, hopefully England will get knocked out. They surprisingly haven't been? Well, too bad. Must happen now. There was always going to be an Act II to this.

There are equally, if not more so, crazy things about the Skripal story, including both victims conveniently collapsing at the same time, after 4-5 hours of allegedly receiving the dose. Rain allegedly helping to minimize the dose so that they didn't die... but found in surprisingly non-degraded levels in Skripal samples and still enough to kill four months later in tiny amounts (we are told). Baby wipes will get rid of it. Nope, full decontamination required. Now baby wipe advice again. Now you have the government purchasing the Skripal and Bailey properties (but not Zizzi's or the pub) with tax-payer money, which might be a sneaky way of laundering payments made for silence/services rendered. No secret payments to offshore accounts. No secret testing on humans. All out in the open. All explainable. Because evil Russia.

Then again, it might all just be a coincidence that suddenly during the World Cup, two people have come into contact with the substance accidentally, when nobody else has for four months. Or that Putin has taken the risk, during the World Cup, of actively poisoning two people to cast more doubt on the original accusations.
 
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Someone doesn’t understand nerve agents and how their lethality/effectiveness is calculated...
I certainly don't, i scraped a disinterested A level in chemistry and have never looked at the subject since :( If i want to bump someone off I'll have to use more basic means ;) I also think people are elevating the global importance of a football match as a trigger for political imprudence rather too high.
 
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I also think people are elevating the global importance of a football match as a trigger for political imprudence rather too high.

Are you kidding? If England win the World cup, it would be perfect for the current Government, who will release all the bad news they have (Brexit or otherwise) in the press the day after and it'll mostly get ignored because 11 men won a game of football and we're the best nation ever ever ever and it'll be buried behind the 50 page Super Sun World Cup winners commemorative edition.
 
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