Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

[Sankari]

So, is there any actual conclusive evidence yet? Other than lolrussians

* the nerve agent was invented in Russia
* it was mass produced in Russia
* no other country makes it
* it was used to attack a former Russian spy who betrayed his country

That looks like a pretty solid case to me.

Meanwhile, Russia's disinfo agents are working overtime to blame everyone else.

* Sputnik News: it was MI6 and/or the CIA
* Russia Today: it was MI6 and/or the CIA
* Former FSB director Nikolay Kovalev: it was MI6, the CIA, and Ukraine
* The Duran: it was Hillary Clinton and the DNC

 

[Delvis]

So no actual evidence pointing to then conclusively yet then, that's like saying someone doing a bank heist in a Tesla car then it must be Elon musk.

So because no other country makes it, no other country (or person) can get their hands on it?

 

[Hagar]

* the nerve agent was invented in Russia
* it was mass produced in Russia
* no other country makes it
* it was used to attack a former Russian spy who betrayed his country

That looks like a pretty solid case to me.

* Add Putin is a gangster, he has said the penalty for disloyalty is death. He has form for this as well as meddling in other countries.

In my opinion as a 'survivor' of the previous cold war, nothing very much has changed except for a brief period in the early '90's'.

 

[Danny75]

So because no other country makes it, no other country (or person) can get their hands on it?

No other country says they make it. Russia says they don't. Some countries like Israel have never declared what they have or been inspected. Complete destruction of the USA's stockpile of chemical/biological weapons is not expected until 2023.

But we can take Evangelion's word for it that (a) Russia makes it and (b) nobody else makes it, because he made the claim very authoritatively and it's the patriotic thing to believe right now. So there.

 

[stockhausen]

Nobody seems to have come up with a conclusive /convincing argument that any entity other than Putin's Russia was in any way involved in the attacks on Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal - or on Litvinenko or the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 come to that.

Russia certainly has the means, motivation and track record. However, they should obviously be given the benefit of the doubt until Putin comes out with his hands up and declares:

"OK Coppa, yu got me bang to rites, I dun it but yu aint gonna take me alive."​

 

[Scrutinize]

It is clear there is a massive lack of public trust in our Government and the EU. This is never a good thing.

No cause of this is palatable i.e. Domestic produced nerve agent accidentally or purposefully released by either UK or non UK citizen; Russian government sanctioned and in full control of the poisioning; Russian sourced but non-sanctioned and meaning loss of control of the substance; Middle East produced and used etc etc.

The end result is we have a highly potent nerve agent released in the civil environment near to our country's primary military research and training centres.

Regardless, the most concerning element is that this chemical agent is now available to other organisations who would happily release it on millions of people, it can be imported into our country without detection (or made here) and given its potency could wipe out major population centres or facilities.

 

[Firestar_3x]

So the actual scientist who developed this stuff and defected to the US spoke out and said what went on within the program and which lab it was made in and which country (Russia), yet in face of this information the Russians are still saying they have never developed novachock at all.

Even if the Russians didn't do this themselves (i.e. bring it to the UK), which is looking unlikely if the stuff arrived in a suitcase directly from Russia as suspected, they are at least guilty of allowing the research for this nerve agent to get out into the wild and allow someone else to develop it, which as stated from the start is one of the two possibilities.

 

[LOAM]

So the actual scientist who developed this stuff and defected to the US spoke out and said what went on within the program and which lab it was made in and which country (Russia), yet in face of this information the Russians are still saying they have never developed novachock at all.

Even if the Russians didn't do this themselves (i.e. bring it to the UK), which is looking unlikely if the stuff arrived in a suitcase directly from Russia as suspected, they are at least guilty of allowing the research for this nerve agent to get out into the wild and allow someone else to develop it, which as stated from the start is one of the two possibilities.

Maybe the chap who developed it continued his work in the US? It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Sankari]

So no actual evidence pointing to then conclusively yet then

I just showed you the evidence that conclusively points to Russia.

that's like saying someone doing a bank heist in a Tesla car then it must be Elon musk.

It's nothing like that at all. Tesla cars are sold all around the world. Novichok is unique to Russia. Nobody else has it.

So because no other country makes it, no other country (or person) can get their hands on it?

Russia sure as hell doesn't sell it to other countries, so... no.

 

[Sankari]

Maybe the chap who developed it continued his work in the US? It wouldn't be the first time.

Remind me why the Americans would want to kill a former Russian spy who turned double agent and gave the British government a ton of highly classified information.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Maybe the chap who developed it continued his work in the US? It wouldn't be the first time.

That could be an option but out of the two possibilities that is the least likely.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...-uk-poison-attack-toxin-inventor-says/9546298

 

[LOAM]

Remind me why the Americans would want to kill a former Russian spy who turned double agent and gave the British government a ton of highly classified information.

Who know but stranger things have happened, like that horse becoming pope.

 

[Nasher]

Remind me why the Americans would want to kill a former Russian spy who turned double agent and gave the British government a ton of highly classified information.

They didn't do it. Plus the US and UK don't poison people they want to get rid of.

* the nerve agent was invented in Russia
* it was mass produced in Russia
* no other country makes it
* it was used to attack a former Russian spy who betrayed his country

That looks like a pretty solid case to me.

Meanwhile, Russia's disinfo agents are working overtime to blame everyone else.

* Sputnik News: it was MI6 and/or the CIA
* Russia Today: it was MI6 and/or the CIA
* Former FSB director Nikolay Kovalev: it was MI6, the CIA, and Ukraine
* The Duran: it was Hillary Clinton and the DNC

Yea the whole MI6/CIA did it line is getting old. They blame them for everything Russia does wrong (they even blamed them when their athletes got exposed for doping lol), but have yet to provide the world any evidence. Or anything that looks even remotely suspect. I'm pretty sure China would be chiming in as well if they thought western security services were involved.

 

[Sankari]

Who know but stranger things have happened, like that horse becoming pope.

OK, so the short version is that you have no rationale to support your theory.

They didn't do it. Plus the US and UK don't poison people they want to get rid of.

I don't believe they did it, I was responding to LOAM's suggestion that they might have.

 

[Domo]

Playing devils advocate, none of that implies the order came from Putin / the Russian state. It stacks up for sure but it’s not full burden of proof.

 

[LOAM]

OK, so the short version is that you have no rationale to support your theory.



I don't believe they did it, I was responding to LOAM's suggestion that they might have.

It's not a theory, i don't think for a second anyone other than the Russians did it. I am slightly conflicted though because I don't trust our own government as far as I could throw them so there's a part of me suspects in years to come, something will come out.

Consider it more a musing. I'm a fortean, I question everything

 

[Amnesia]

so any evidence that Russia created it or just the usual, it must be Russia because we dont like them

 

[Danny75]

so any evidence that Russia created it or just the usual, it must be Russia because we dont like them

They're investigating a mysterious vial, discovered in the suitcase.



Update: They've now confirmed it to be a doll of a type developed by Russia.

 

[StriderX]

They didn't do it. Plus the US and UK don't poison people they want to get rid of.



Yea the whole MI6/CIA did it line is getting old. They blame them for everything Russia does wrong (they even blamed them when their athletes got exposed for doping lol), but have yet to provide the world any evidence. Or anything that looks even remotely suspect. I'm pretty sure China would be chiming in as well if they thought western security services were involved.

China doesnt care anymore. It's too busy farming Eastern Siberia, building infrastructure in Africa and killing US informants to play political games, when they feel powerful enough (IE no question), they'll take their mantle.

Though if Russia's actions start impeding their plans, i'm sure Xi will be sending Moscow a rather large and imposing message, a part of me feels that it's actually beneficial for China for Putin to act this way though, less focus on them.

Seems to work.

 

[Nasher]

Yea China is a bit dodgy, but China cares far to much about trade than playing macho-man games with the rest of the world. They realise that gets them nowhere. They want the glory days of the "silk road" back.

But Russia has got itself in to a position where it has nothing to offer the world except gas, which we will need much less of in coming decades. Right now the US is competing to supply gas to Europe. So who does Russia they think Europe will choose if they make themselves enemies of Europe?