Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Danny75 · 17 Mar 2018 at 13:44

Nasher said:
But Russia has got itself in to a position where it has nothing to offer the world except gas, which we will need much less of in coming decades. Right now the US is competing to supply gas to Europe. So who does Russia they think Europe will choose if they make themselves enemies of Europe?

Or who does the US think Europe will choose if Russia is made to be the enemy of Europe.

jpaul · 17 Mar 2018 at 13:56

Corbyn did attend a privvy council meeting , before PMQ's, so if he was provided with additional proof how would that change his behaviour in PMQ's ?
it is somewhat of a gagging order with respect to what he might say

Apparently one of the obstacles to inquiry on Litvinkenko case was sharing of MI6 data, so similarly, we may never be party to the evidence, which might compromise sources etc.

It took almost 10 years for the government to relent to demands for a full public inquiry into Litvinenko’s killing, after the official inquest into his cause of death stalled because it lacked powers to hear top secret evidence from MI6.

Israel have not condemned Russia yet , not that I think they are implicated, but the MOSSAD, not part of nato, had used poisoning

Sankari · 17 Mar 2018 at 14:41

Amnesia said:
so any evidence that Russia created it or just the usual, it must be Russia because we dont like them

The nerve agent was invented in Russia, and no other country makes it.

Nasher · 17 Mar 2018 at 14:51

jpaul said:
Corbyn did attend a privvy council meeting , before PMQ's, so if he was provided with additional proof how would that change his behaviour in PMQ's ?
it is somewhat of a gagging order with respect to what he might say

Apparently one of the obstacles to inquiry on Litvinkenko case was sharing of MI6 data, so similarly, we may never be party to the evidence, which might compromise sources etc.

Israel have not condemned Russia yet , not that I think they are implicated, but the MOSSAD, not part of nato, had used poisoning

The Litvinkenko investigation was constantly disrupted by the Russian state which is why they don't want to involve them this time.

dowie · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:12

the other issue is that if (as is seemingly likely) this was a deliberate Russian attack/Russia is actively using nerve agents designed (in part) to avoid detection etc.. then letting them in on investigations, revealing some of of UK's ability to detect such agents/what we know about it etc..etc. is rather useful information for them, especially if they want to develop these nerve agents or their mechanisms of deployment, amount to use etc.. further

so while it can come across as quite a reasonable move by Russia to both create some confusion and then act as though they want to help investigate etc.. it also forces the UK to reveal things it would want to keep secret for good reason and quite likely isn't going to actually bring any useful contribution from the Russian side as per the Litvinenko case

Mynight · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:19

Evangelion said:
The nerve agent was invented in Russia, and no other country makes it.

Surely the latter part is impossible to prove?

IceWind · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:22

Evangelion said:
The nerve agent was invented in Russia, and no other country makes it.

any country that knows the genetic makeup of it can produce it... and considering post USSR cold war, the UK and the USA helped decommission labs that used to produce the agent both the US and UK will know how to produce it

Skunkworks · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:37

Russia is getting blamed, rightly or wrongly, for a lot of stuff lately, and the accusations are still rolling in with the latest US claims of hacking.

Is the West ramping up for something, distracting from domestic issues, or is Russia genuinely being provocative?

simpletom · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:43

Evangelion said:
Remind me why the Americans would want to kill a former Russian spy who turned double agent and gave the British government a ton of highly classified information.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...p-dossier-author-reports-20180308-p4z3iy.html

Links, somewhat tenuous, to the Trump dossier.

I do find it bizarre that some of us are regressing to the 80s again in attitude. I guess those who are calling for a scrap will be the first in line and the armchair generals will be there in full Ironman outfit, ready to serve their country.

Russia are no fools, despite their occasional belligerance. Why would they use a nerve agent only produced in Russia and why are people taking the word of a defector, and our shambolic government, as writ?

Edit: and Trump? Trump, for crying out loud. The guy is a halfwit!

IceWind · 17 Mar 2018 at 15:50

Russia... quite honestly have active agression towards the "west" and are really only defending themselves on the whole. Yes there is probably some questionable actions here and there.

But lets put in perspective the entire NATO budget against what Russia has. Yes China could be considered a close ally of Russia but on the grand scale of things China is nothing without the west and they would much rather manipulate the markets than face to face anoy anyone.

Something is not quite right here.... and quite honestly I think we should be looking a lot closer to home on this one

jpaul · 17 Mar 2018 at 16:37

dowie said:
then letting them in on investigations, revealing some of of UK's ability to detect such agents/what we know about it etc..etc.

They could acknowledge these diagnostics/facts exists, even if they do not share them with electorate or fr/de/us allies .... maybe they will 'share' after any cuplrits are intercepted, or sources are in safety.
I don't understand why the media (international/home) are not speculating too.

IceWind said:
any country that knows the genetic makeup of it can produce it...

rather a flippant example - but don't we know the ingredients in coca-cola ? ... and also, the process to create it may be unknown, or technically difficult.

LoadsaMoney · 17 Mar 2018 at 16:41

Have they turned the gas off yet ?

IceWind · 17 Mar 2018 at 16:54

jpaul said:
rather a flippant example - but don't we know the ingredients in coca-cola ? ... and also, the process to create it may be unknown, or technically difficult.

Well yea... there is a lot of cola out there thats not quite coca cola but its still cola... just like this could not quite be novichok from the USSR era BUT still novichok none the less

RDM · 17 Mar 2018 at 17:35

LoadsaMoney said:
Have they turned the gas off yet ?

It is really difficult for them to do that just to the UK. It all goes into the same distribution network so the only way to turn off Russian gas the to UK is to turn it off to Europe. I don't think Russia can really afford that.

Eddie · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:02

I tell you what, I wouldn't want to be going to Russia for the footy this summer.

It already had potential to be dangerous after what we saw during Euro 2016, but now, I just don't think I'd take the risk.

Tefal · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:07

Angilion said:
That depends on how it's used. 'allies' is simply the plural of ally. 'Allies' might not be and 'the Allies' almost certainly won't be.

But no one used "the allies" there was no "the" in the headline or article.

arctine · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:17

IceWind said:
Well yea... there is a lot of cola out there thats not quite coca cola but its still cola... just like this could not quite be novichok from the USSR era BUT still novichok none the less

Please, share the wealth of knowledge and experience you must have to be able to come up to such a remarkable comparison?

Or is what you said in fact extremely facile and quite frankly stupid? Nah, you know better than the experts.

Psycho Ned · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:25

Dr.Eddie said:
I tell you what, I wouldn't want to be going to Russia for the footy this summer.

It already had potential to be dangerous after what we saw during Euro 2016, but now, I just don't think I'd take the risk.

You'd have to be mental to go to be honest.

The Russian ultras would have been already gearing up for us before all this kicked off they'll be extra keen now! and if you think the Russian constabulary are going to have our backs you've got another think coming!!

Plus on top of all that England are god awful anyway!

Danny75 · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:33

arctine said:
Please, share the wealth of knowledge and experience you must have to be able to come up to such a remarkable comparison?

Very simple comparison. Nothing remarkable about it unless simple things evade you.

arctine said:
Or is what you said in fact extremely facile and quite frankly stupid? Nah, you know better than the experts.

Porton Down scientists merely agreed to the wording: "Of a type developed in Russia." Actually it was the old Soviet Union. We don't have any statements from them about the origin of the actual agent used. Unless you know better than the experts, that is?

Eddie · 17 Mar 2018 at 18:50

Psycho Ned said:
You'd have to be mental to go to be honest.

The Russian ultras would have been already gearing up for us before all this kicked off they'll be extra keen now! and if you think the Russian constabulary are going to have our backs you've got another think coming!!

Plus on top of all that England are god awful anyway!

Iirc, it was reported that Putin was quite pleased with the way his 'football fans' went about their business during Euro 2016.

Russia won the world cup under suspicious circumstances as well, didn't they?