Gang of 12 'allegedly' rape British Citizen in Cyprus

I think a lot of you are being rather naive if you don't think some women enjoy big groups like that and being used (to a degree). There was a huge swingers club literally up the road from me in Bristol, before it caught on fire at least. And there are many free sites which like-minded individuals use to meet up.

So seeing first hand the sort of meets some people like and actively advertise I don't think it's far from the realms of possibility that she actually liked the group attention.
 
String said:
For them to treat a young girl like that, whether she was willing or not, is utterly vile.

It's frightening to think that any member of the public could be selected as a jury member in this country!
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Young girl? She's a 19 year old woman.
 
Dis86 said:
Young girl? She's a 19 year old woman.
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Only 6 years older than some of the Rotheram lot, probably similarly vulnerable which can lead us down a different tangent, although many differences between the cases it's a close brief regarding the victims.
 
String said:
Really? I'd be interested in what other part of my point you find to be ambiguous as I'd be happy to clarify or amend like I did with the description of the young woman.
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Whether she consented or not and the immediate reaction that it was vile. If she consented and enjoyed the experience who are you to say it was wrong?
 
Dis86 said:
Whether she consented or not and the immediate reaction that it was vile. If she consented and enjoyed the experience who are you to say it was wrong?
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Even if this version was true (which it almost certainly isn't) the boys behaved illegally and immoraly by filming it and sharing it online without consent.
 
Dis86 said:
Whether she consented or not and the immediate reaction that it was vile. If she consented and enjoyed the experience who are you to say it was wrong?
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I would like to quote my post for clarity as I feel you may be making conclusions based on posts outwith my own.

String said:
You make an instant and completely negative moral judgement on the young woman with very little evidence available to you, yet you are sympathetic to young men her own age who made the same decision you think she did i.e. participate in group sex with strangers.

For them to treat a young woman like that, whether she was willing or not, is utterly vile.

It's frightening to think that any member of the public could be selected as a jury member in this country!
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Now to address and respond to what you have said to me.

Dis86 said:
Whether she consented or not
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I have not made any reference to her consent. This is because it is impossible for me to say, and that's why I specifically said "whether she was willing or not" - I'm saying that in the context of the point I am making, her consent is irrelevant.

Dis86 said:
and the immediate reaction that it was vile
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This is my personal opinion, based on personal experience. What the dozen young men did was vile, regardless of the young woman's consent. I can empathise more accurately with the men because I am a man, I am heterosexual and I was once their age. I have consumed alcohol and drugs at their age, I have been on lads holidays in Magaluf. I have had sex with strangers I have literally just met in a bar under these conditions. There is no way I would be in a queue with 11 of my friends, waiting for my turn to sexually interact with a drunk teenager, and not question the acceptability of what was going on. My very first thought would be to question the capacity for decision making with regards to the teenager involved. Were drugs and alcohol influencing her judgement? Mental health? This is all on the assumption that the teenager was consenting - if she wasn't, then clearly it's a no brainer.

To be clear; I am saying that these men were not victims and that's regardless of the consent from the teenager involved. It was abuse of a person, abuse of their position and anonymity within a gang of youths. It was taking vile advantage of a situation, and it was unacceptable. They sailed so close to the realms of acceptability that consent could arguably be considered impossible in that situation. They are getting a free pass here, and I'm calling it out.

Dis86 said:
If she consented and enjoyed the experience who are you to say it was wrong
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Firstly, I do not use the phrase right or wrong. I'm not being pedantic; it's an important distinction. I'm saying it's unacceptable.
Secondly, If she consented and enjoyed the experience then she wouldn't have went to the police to report it as rape.
 
String said:
You make an instant and completely negative moral judgement on the young woman with very little evidence available to you, yet you are sympathetic to young men her own age who made the same decision you think she did i.e. participate in group sex with strangers.

For them to treat a young woman like that, whether she was willing or not, is utterly vile.

It's frightening to think that any member of the public could be selected as a jury member in this country!
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For your information jury members are not there per se to make moral judgements, just one of guilt or innocence of the charge, so my opinion on this woman's lack of morality would be irrelevant to any decision I would be asked to make as a member of a British jury. My morality judgement is quite independent of my judgement of whether she is guilty of a false rape claim or not. This division of legal and moral judgement would almost certainly be made clear to a jury in such a case, and is one reason previous convictions are not made available to the jury.

I maintain her morality is highly suspect, from a Christian perspective, and a personal one. Similarly that of the men engaging in group sexual activities is the same, morally dubious to say the least, but that is quite different to a legal perspective on the case. My sympathy for the men involved lies in my believing that from a legal point of view I feel they are probably innocent from what I see and hear as a member of the public.

Whether as a jury member with whatever factual information was laid before me, I maintained that opinion is pure speculation. As a member of a jury one's job is to listen to the evidence and make as well founded a judgement of guilt or innocence as one can, doing one's best to ignore moral judgement based on one's personal moral code. Having been on jury service twice and having family members in the legal profession as barristers and solicitors my duty has been made and is, quite clear, thank you!

But I am worldly wise enough to know that testosterone fueled young men are unlikely to phone their Rabbi and ask for moral guidance when some bint has her drawers around her ankles and is servicing their pals in some hotel room ;) A sordid case with no one coming out of it with heads held high but as to whether it was rape...
 
@String

You complain about the previous poster making a negative moral comment yet you've done the exact same thing by, and I'll say it again, describing the act as vile. You've got no evidence to assert that there was no agreement in anything that they did yet you're condemning them.
You do understand that by using phrases such as vile, unacceptable and condemnation that you are asserting it's wrong. You are also incorrect when you assert that by going to the police and reporting it that she didn't consent.

PEOPLE LIE
 
String said:
It was abuse of a person, abuse of their position and anonymity within a gang of youths. It was taking vile advantage of a situation, and it was unacceptable
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Allegedly

String said:
If she consented and enjoyed the experience then she wouldn't have went to the police to report it as rape
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That's quite ignorant of the high proportion of claims made by the mentally and physically loose.
 
NVP said:
Allegedly


That's quite ignorant of the high proportion of claims made by the mentally and physically loose.
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Precisely. He's complaining about people making their mind up without evidence by erm...doing the exact same thing.
 
Dis86 said:
You complain about the previous poster making a negative moral comment yet you've done the exact same thing by, and I'll say it again, describing the act as vile. You've got no evidence to assert that there was no agreement in anything that they did yet you're condemning them.
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I have made it clear that there is no requirement for evidence of consent for me to conclude that what the 12 youths did was vile.

Dis86 said:
You do understand that by using phrases such as vile, unacceptable and condemnation that you are asserting it's wrong
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I have made it clear that I am saying what the 12 youths did was unacceptable. If you want to continue using the word "wrong" then it's your choice of words, not mine.

Dis86 said:
You are also incorrect when you assert that by going to the police and reporting it that she didn't consent
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I have not claimed she didn't consent, neither have I claimed that she did. It is impossible for me to say whether or not she consented. I said, and I quote, "If she consented and enjoyed the experience then she wouldn't have went to the police to report it as rape".
 
The lefts idea of guilty until eternity if accused falls apart if you assume people can lie though, "We must always believe the victim" isn't that right?

It could have been something as simple as her overhearing a couple of them calling her a whore the next morning that would make her go from being happy with how the night went to wanting to go to the police.
 
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