Gun crime in the UK - law and controls

teaboy5 said:
Here is a link for you.

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/17/NI-averaging-one-gun-crime-a-day-in-2015-45145

Again illegally held guns which ban will never stop.

What's your thinking behind a ban? Do you think a drug dealer is going say "Jesus lad's gun's are banned now for Joe Blogs down the street we best not use them anymore"
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It's also worth noting this statement from someone who knows what they're talking about when it comes to gun crime figures.

However, Deputy Chief Constable Dave Thompson of West Midlands police, who has national oversight of the criminal use of firearms, said the figures painted a misleading picture.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...l-rancour-and-regret-over-west-midlands-label

A quarter of the total 540 offences related to air weapons, he said, pointing out that the figures also include incidents in which a firearm may not actually have been used. For example, if a robber held up a shop shouting “I’ve got a gun” then this would count as a gun crime, even if no firearm was present.
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So if Northern Ireland is averaging one gun crime a day, how many of those are actual real guns, how many are air pistols, how many are 8mm blank starter pistols, how many are a case of there not even being an actual firearm present and it was simply a threat of one.

The alternative is how many real weapons have actually been discharged.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-firearm-discharges-within-the-united-kingdom

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ired-guns-accidentally-110-TIMES-3-years.html

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/nov/03/london-gun-crime-shootings-rise

They reveal that the number of actual shootings has almost doubled from 123 to 236 in the last six months compared with the same period last year, a rise of 91.8%. Serious firearms offences have risen by 47% across the capital.

Those discharging the firearms and those being shot at are young teenagers involved in "respect shootings" to settle petty disputes with little thought of the consequences, say police and community leaders. More and more such shootings involve a gunshot to the leg, echoing the punishment attacks meted out in Northern Ireland. Detectives say that pointing a gun at the shin or knee is a deliberate tactic to avoid any chance the victim will die, risking a 30-year mandatory sentence.
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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/exclusive-where-london-are-you-most-likely-be-shot-1442138

The gun crime capital of London can be revealed after an IBTimes UK investigation found which boroughs and wards had seen the most shootings in the past three years.

Between 2011-13 a total of 1,274 shootings were recorded across the 32 boroughs served by the Metropolitan Police Service.
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Here's a doozy. The PSNI discharged more rounds into doors, walls, car boots and footwells than they did shooting at suspects. They also shot more animals dead than people.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...hOQnj9F8irU_sF60lt9KqA&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...As11tgMvjz3Slx32rDDviw&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...kCKTDg7Mkaa4pen3uDEHLQ&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...RQHKw0N4k9PBUcUZXNUB-Q&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

Here's information recording negligent discharges, firearms tickets for given years (05 - 07) and a few other stats.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r..._FwfYeTehART-gHRTRJl0Q&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

How many officers managed to shoot themselves from negligent discharges from 2004 - 2008.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...-I2dYAbAG2lEAlhEslsAaQ&bvm=bv.104819420,d.d24

Three cops disciplined after leaving their weapons in the glove box in their car, despite Hydebank having secure storage for weapons... then one of them discharged a round.

http://www.belfastdaily.co.uk/2013/...i-officers-disciplined-after-ombudsman-probe/

Then this lot that opened fire trying to shoot out car tyres without taking into consideration ricocheting, crossfire or a back drop. And despite having a stinger in the car, none of them were authorised to use it.

https://www.policeombudsman.org/Inv...harge-of-personal-issue-firearms-at-car-tyres
 
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teaboy5 said:
Good find.

I have a disliking for people wanting out right bans on things they don't understand or in some cases have never even used.

In the same silly mind set that Crazy think's in, I think we should ban cars! I could easily get in one and drive up the foot path and kill a few people that way!
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A car has a useful safe purpose, a hand gun doesn't. I'm personally fine with people being allowed to own shotguns and single shot rifles as long as they undergo strict and regular checks.
 
Gribs said:
A car has a useful safe purpose, a hand gun doesn't. I'm personally fine with people being allowed to own shotguns and single shot rifles as long as they undergo strict and regular checks.
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A gun has a useful safe purpose in which the owner can use it for target shooting to provide him/her with hours of fun relating to their hobby.
 
mattcrane said:
For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
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Apologies to anyone who has been through these debates before but Tony Martin is a terrible example for what it is most often used to illustrate - namely that Mr Martin was unfairly treated and were we in America he'd not have been charged. I have no doubt that it was a terrible situation for him to be in and I feel sympathy that he had claimed there were multiple break-ins before he took the law into his own hands. You can make the argument that if he really had suffered the break-ins that he claimed the police should have done more but that doesn't alter the fact that he delivered his own punishment to the criminals.

It's also worth noting that even in the American states with the most liberal interpretation of castle doctrine he'd probably have been charged with murder and most likely found guilty because he shot someone in the back who was running away and then left them to die. If you will his choice was to compound a wrong done to him with a greater one done to someone else.

teaboy5 said:
A gun has a useful safe purpose in which the owner can use it for target shooting to provide him/her with hours of fun relating to their hobby.
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Do you need to own the gun to do target shooting or could you just go to a local club/gun range to do that?
 
semi-pro waster said:
Do you need to own the gun to do target shooting or could you just go to a local club/gun range to do that?
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Could use the same argument about owning a car vs hiring one/taking a taxi...

If you go shooting a couple of times/week then the costs of hiring will quickly overtake the one-off costs of buying one and the equipment to store in safely/securely.

Not to mention you get to use a (probably) better quality gun which has been looked after properly rather than the cheap one which gets bashed around and abused by the "newbies"
 
semi-pro waster said:
Do you need to own the gun to do target shooting or could you just go to a local club/gun range to do that?
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Clay pigeon grounds generally do not own/rent out guns.

If you are taking a lesson then gun hire is usually included in the cost of the lesson if you dont own a shotgun.

Personally I wouldn't want to be using a different gun every weekend how are you supposed to get comfortable with the way it handles? As this will effect how well you can shoot with it.

Always amazes me how many people think you have to spend x number of thousands of pounds on a gun to be any good, gun fit is much more important.

As mentioned above the cost of constantly hiring a gun to shoot would be stupid.

At one stage I was shooting 4 - 5 times a week.
 
Some of these arguments remind me of when bullbars were mostly made illegal.
Interview on tv between a campaigner to get rid of them and some odd bulbar club enthusiast.
Enthusiast essentially said, "They look nice and I like them".
The case for getting rid of them were if you got hit at 30mph you were more likely to be killed by multiples. A child being hit had almost no chance.

He couldn't really reply to that.

The laws seem fine as they are. Getting a gun legally is a hassle as it should be and getting one illegally gets you into a whole heap of trouble.
Those that think they can just get them on the dark web are probably going to get either found out quickly or setup.
 
Great stuff, my gun IQ is increasing.

I would like to own a gun, I could protect my home, family from ne'er do-wells. I agree with training and safe storage.

I have had an attempted break in once and it was frightening. Luckily they did not want to be seen and ran off.
 
jpod said:
Great stuff, my gun IQ is increasing.

I would like to own a gun, I could protect my home, family from ne'er do-wells. I agree with training and safe storage.

I have had an attempted break in once and it was frightening. Luckily they did not want to be seen and ran off.
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Think its probably for the best that people who want to own guns purely incase they have to shoot other people shouldnt be allowed to.

Hence self defence isnt a reason in the UK for owning one........

You'll be fine with no gun.
 
Haggisman said:
Could use the same argument about owning a car vs hiring one/taking a taxi...

If you go shooting a couple of times/week then the costs of hiring will quickly overtake the one-off costs of buying one and the equipment to store in safely/securely.

Not to mention you get to use a (probably) better quality gun which has been looked after properly rather than the cheap one which gets bashed around and abused by the "newbies"
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You certainly could make that argument about a car if you live in London/any location with good public transport as for many the car will simply be a convenience rather than a necessity or perhaps you could phrase it as an object that is a want rather than a need.

However that doesn't apply in all locations, some have poor public transport, some have transportation needs that can only be fulfilled with their own vehicle (special adaptations/small children/whatever). I think you might struggle to find a comparable number of people who need a gun.

The post I was replying to was talking about shooting as a hobby, rather than for people who need a gun though. I have absolutely no doubt there's lots of people who can use and store guns safely in pursuit of their hobby. There are some hobbies that you can only do under controlled environments which will almost certainly cost more or are illegal in this country, that's unfortunate in terms of curtailing peoples freedoms but sometimes necessary - whether it is necessary or not here I don't know nor would I hazard a guess.

I'm not actually taking a stance on this issue but someone having a hobby that is too expensive for them to pursue (for whatever reason) isn't necessarily a good argument for a change in how the activity is regulated or costs apportioned.

mattcrane said:
Clay pigeon grounds generally do not own/rent out guns.

If you are taking a lesson then gun hire is usually included in the cost of the lesson if you dont own a shotgun.

Personally I wouldn't want to be using a different gun every weekend how are you supposed to get comfortable with the way it handles? As this will effect how well you can shoot with it.

Always amazes me how many people think you have to spend x number of thousands of pounds on a gun to be any good, gun fit is much more important.

As mentioned above the cost of constantly hiring a gun to shoot would be stupid.

At one stage I was shooting 4 - 5 times a week.
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Not wanting to use a different gun every weekend but still able to pursue your hobby at a cost would presumably be better than not able to pursue it at all? As above if the situation means not being able to afford your hobby then that is unfortunate but not necessarily a good reason for a change in regulation. Not all hobbies can (or should - come to that) be equally accessible.
 
jpod said:
Great stuff, my gun IQ is increasing.

I would like to own a gun, I could protect my home, family from ne'er do-wells. I agree with training and safe storage.

I have had an attempted break in once and it was frightening. Luckily they did not want to be seen and ran off.
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Boycey0211 said:
Think its probably for the best that people who want to own guns purely incase they have to shoot other people shouldnt be allowed to.

Hence self defence isnt a reason in the UK for owning one........

You'll be fine with no gun.
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I suspect our current laws make break-ins a bit more 'gentlemanly' in this country: if I was burgling a home in the US I'd definitely be packing heat as I'd expect home-owners to have all sorts of firearms. (This is pure speculation on my part.)

Anyway, swords is where it's at - if you're English you should be protecting your goods and chattels like a sir.
 
Uk gun law should stay as it is.

All we need is say scheduled preplanned visits maybe bi or tri anually from firearms officer to ensure all ok or when you need to renew, major circumstances change, along with reviews such as medical and cbr checks

There used to be a point where firearms officers were backlogged with work, applications, visits, not sure what there workload is like these days, depends on location and staffing numbers in that sector i guess


I held a shotgun cert for 10 years and firearms for 2 whilst i had the .17hmr
 
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DJMK4 said:
Uk gun law should stay as it is.

All we need is say scheduled preplanned visits maybe bi or tri anually from firearms officer to ensure all ok or when you need to renew, major circumstances change, along with reviews such as medical and cbr checks

There used to be a point where firearms officers were backlogged with work, applications, visits, not sure what there workload is like these days, depends on location and staffing numbers in that sector i guess


I held a shotgun cert for 10 years and firearms for 2 whilst i had the .17hmr
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Worse, most regions are even more understaffed and overworked 3-6 month waits are very common, or worse. The problem is that when licensing came in it was done on a 5 yearly review for renewals so every 5 years they get hammered severely with renewals alongside the normal applications. This year is one of those 5 years terms. They need to stagger it so it doesnt swamp the firearms depts like it does now
 
I'm on a shooting group on facebook, seems to be some very long delays for a few members with renewals. Here it used to be every three years at a cost of £28.00. It's now £50.00 for five years. Add in variations of existing certificates and new applications it is indeed easy to see how swamped the firearms branch is.
 
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