Hungarian Grand Prix 2010, Hungaroring Circuit - Race 12/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
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Soldato
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I can't see that not having a number one driver is harming McClaren at the moment. They have 2 drivers who are close enough on points that they could win the championship if they had the car. It is the lack of a competitive car not driver infighting that is losing them their chance.
I don't buy this "spirit of the rules" business.
F1 is a business and RBR are operating as a business. They need to keep afloat. The best way to do this is to win races, by pushing the rules to their limits. They are doing exactly that. This strategy is proving very successful for them (they are leading both championships).
There are other teams (and fans) who don't like this (because they are getting beaten badly), yet the FIA continue to allow RBR to get away with it. If the FIA are allowing RBR to get away with these performance enhancing devices, then it is legal. You guys may not like this but this is just how it is. The FIA must've seen all the images, which are easily available on the internet. They must've seen the wings almost touching the ground, yet nothing is done about it.
Any news on whether the flexi wings are going to be banned?
F1 is a business and RBR are operating as a business. They need to keep afloat. The best way to do this is to win races, by pushing the rules to their limits. They are doing exactly that. This strategy is proving very successful for them (they are leading both championships).
There are other teams (and fans) who don't like this (because they are getting beaten badly), yet the FIA continue to allow RBR to get away with it. If the FIA are allowing RBR to get away with these performance enhancing devices, then it is legal. You guys may not like this but this is just how it is. The FIA must've seen all the images, which are easily available on the internet. They must've seen the wings almost touching the ground, yet nothing is done about it.
Any news on whether the flexi wings are going to be banned?
"leaked" that test weights will be doubled. How true that is we will have to wait.
FIA haven't really let them get away with it.
A) no one asked for clarification
B) it has been a progressive design and only in the last couple of races has been very noticeable.
There is no spirit of the rules, but there are rules clearly banning to much flex and rules allowing FIA to change test procedure.
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When you are fighting a team (like RBR), with a vastly superior car, you need every single point you can get hold of. Even 1 point. If you look back over the last few years, you will see the championships have been won/lost by a single point.
I think McLaren have already had a 1-2 finish with Button leading. Had Hamilton been allowed to win that, instead of Button, Hamilton would have an extra 7 points and would be leading the championship at this stage.
I'm not saying that McLaren should've given Hamilton that win (it was too early in the season for that), however, you get my point that if Button is ahead of Hamilton in the remaining races, McLaren would do well to maximise Hamilton's (or Button's) points total, otherwise, both McLaren drivers could be overtaken by Alonso and the RBR cars.
Basically, any team has to avoid the situation of having their drivers filling up the 2nd and 3rd place positions in the championship, eg. what happened in 2007, when Alonso and Hamilton finished on equal points and lost the title by 1 point. That really was the worst possible result for McLaren, which could've been prevented had management been stronger. A team needs strong management/direction. Companies/teams/organisations usually do better when key decisions are being made from the top. When decisions are not taken at the top and management lets their sub-ordinates do as they please, the company/team/organisation tends not to do as well. This is the very reason why good management teams are worth their weight in gold and often get paid A LOT of money.
Again the Michelins past all tests but it wasn't until they were analysed with photo and video evidence that we could see them changing. That was deemed against the spirit of the rules and the teams couldn't race or change them.
The same is true of the thrid mclaren pedal, that was passed in scruitineering and wasn't thrown out until teams protested. Mainly because they couldn't get their system to work.
IF the wing end is not 85mm from the floor it's a movable aero device and against the spirit of the rules in exactly the same way ferrari flexing floor was.
AH, I would disagree with that.
The FIA have definitely known what was going on. Yet they have continued to allow RBR to break the rules. It shouldnt need some form of protest from another team, for the obvious to be pointed out to the FIA.
If the FIA were blindfolded and stored away in some bunker on another planet, then I could totally understand that for them to begin an investigation, it must first be formally brought to their attention. However, the FIA do have access to the internet. They have access to TV coverage, which is bringing to everybody's attention (including the FIA) that RBR's wing is illegal. Despite the knowledge that RBR are breaking the rules, the FIA have not done anything. To me, this means that they have already got away with it for 2 races and may well continue to get away with it, in future races.
That is how these things work. if it passes scrutineering. it is up for teams to lodge their concerns. Which two teams now have, fia are now investigating and it is likely the scruiteneering will now be altered as per the regs.
As I said, the previous WDC's have been won by 1 point. To this end, 7 points is enough to win/lose the WDC.
Every point is crucial when you are trying to beat the vastly superior RBR cars.
Which basically means that the wing may be banned in the future. But the 2 races with which they have used the illegal device - the FIA have allowed RBR to get away with and profit from (unless the FIA deduct points from RBR, should the device be banned in the future - which has not happened, yet).
I agree they have lost nothing and gained a hell of a lot. well worth it for them.
I reckon the leak is correct they tested mclaren, Ferrari and rbr. I reckon they have used McLarens wing to set a bench mark for the weights. A weight where the other two deflect, but mclarens doesn't/
I reckon the leak is correct they tested mclaren, Ferrari and rbr. I reckon they have used McLarens wing to set a bench mark for the weights. A weight where the other two deflect, but mclarens doesn't/
It isnt working for them because otherwise they would be streets ahead and already won the championship - but I guess thats just you being tactically blind (again)
Whether the FIA have seen the wings touching the ground or not makes no difference at all - it is written in black and white that it IS against the rules (in regards to the 85mm above track surface at any time)
Without doubt the FIA have been using the wrong way of testing for this - otherwise this wouldnt have come about, maybe the fact that the test is wrong is why the FIA couldnt /wouldnt do anything until an appeal / clarrification request was officially placed by other teams
(yes I know the FIA are allowed to change the rules if they spot anything - but on the other hand because its something tehy are testing for already DIRECTLY which is inadequate - maybe thats why they havent "highlighted it" by doing it off their own back)
Whether the FIA allow a team to get away with something doesnt automatically mean its not against the rules , I think the main thing that could have forced the FIA to act was cost - Im sure by the winter they would have been officially banned / a new test coming in anyway so for McLaren / Mercedes / Williams etc etc all to develop their own variants would see an almighty amount of money (potentially millions per team with wind tunnel time, wages and track testing on fridays etc) all for 7 races or whatever - thats a gigantic waste of money when the FIA should have acted previously
I will put £10 down now in any bet - I dont believe RBR are likely to lose any points already gained. They may/probably will have their current wing banned, but they wont lose any points
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Man of Honour
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Thought this was an interesting article from Jame Allen - http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/08/why-new-fia-flexi-test-wont-clip-red-bulls-wings/
Would certainly explain RBRs numerous all nighters that they have had.
I still can't believe how many mistakes they have made this year (and last). They could have walked away with the championships by now.
Would certainly explain RBRs numerous all nighters that they have had.
I still can't believe how many mistakes they have made this year (and last). They could have walked away with the championships by now.
It is working for them.
They are leading the constructors' title.
They are leading the WDC title.
I don't believe it is mathematically possible for them to have won the WDC with 7 races to go.
Operating as a business has not stopped them gaining extra points - car breakdowns, drivers taking points off of eachother and a collission between both drivers is what has reduced their potential points total.
In summary, I have no idea what you are talking about.
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If this was football. You would 100% be correct. Manager would get the sack.
However, this is F1.
If RBR don't win both titles this year, Horner has a very high probability of being in charge next season.
well maybe you should learn a thing or two by reading the article Rave linked to
Given the speed of the car has been there since Bahrain - they really should have won majority of the races so far (which has been said by majority of people so far this season) and a hefty number of 1 -2 's from the front row lock outs from quali
Given that RBR are just in the lead of both with so many points lost already as we currently stand - it would be a double edged sword ie McLaren and Ferrari wouldnt have as many points and RBR would have had them instead (for the races they should have won and didnt) - so the difference between them would be double for each single change in result. Its quite easily possible the TEAM would have won already (which is what I originally stated)
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Ferrari have Alonso and now have a decent car.
McLaren have the last 2 world champions - the best driver combination in F1.
RBR have the best car, but their drivers are letting them down.
Yes, RBR by now, could have had a big lead, however, due to in-fighting, politics, a little bit of unreliability and weak management, they are only just ahead. But nevertheless, they are ahead.
Nobody would complain (I dont care who you are), about being in the lead of both championships, with 7 odd races to go.
Newey does push people to the limit, in order to eek every last bit of performance out of the car. This strategy does work, as shown by the fact that RBR have the best car, by far and no matter what gadget the opposition invent, RBR is able to stay ahead.
You seem to be completely discounting driver peformance.
Webber, although he has raised his game, is not in the same class as Alonso, Hamilton or Button.
Vettel is slightly better, but as we have seen this year, when he is not in the lead, he gets bogged down and dissapears. While Button, Alonso and Hamilton can drive from the back of the field, to the front, Vettel doesnt seem to be able to do this regularly. Massa suffers from exactly the same problem. Despite all this though, they are still leading both title races.
As I said before, RBR are doing a fine job (with better management, they would've had more points) and nobody can complain about their points lead, as it currently stands.
McLaren have the last 2 world champions - the best driver combination in F1.
RBR have the best car, but their drivers are letting them down.
Yes, RBR by now, could have had a big lead, however, due to in-fighting, politics, a little bit of unreliability and weak management, they are only just ahead. But nevertheless, they are ahead.
Nobody would complain (I dont care who you are), about being in the lead of both championships, with 7 odd races to go.
Newey does push people to the limit, in order to eek every last bit of performance out of the car. This strategy does work, as shown by the fact that RBR have the best car, by far and no matter what gadget the opposition invent, RBR is able to stay ahead.
You seem to be completely discounting driver peformance.
Webber, although he has raised his game, is not in the same class as Alonso, Hamilton or Button.
Vettel is slightly better, but as we have seen this year, when he is not in the lead, he gets bogged down and dissapears. While Button, Alonso and Hamilton can drive from the back of the field, to the front, Vettel doesnt seem to be able to do this regularly. Massa suffers from exactly the same problem. Despite all this though, they are still leading both title races.
As I said before, RBR are doing a fine job (with better management, they would've had more points) and nobody can complain about their points lead, as it currently stands.
Man of Honour
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There is no doubt, if Alonso, Hamilton or Button were in that Red Bull they would have walked it by now.