HUNGARORING - BUDAPEST - HUNGARY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 10/17

[MarcLister]

So this would be about the first time in the history of F1, where a team willingly removes a gizmo that gives them a decisive advantage. In 1994 when the rules were revised and Williams had to de-evolve their 1993 car, which was arguably the most high-tech F1 car ever built, they were not happy. But they did it because the rules required it.

Yes because they've signed up to a group that won't use KERS next season.

What you are saying is that McLaren, though the rules don't require it, will willingly take off the gizmo, to allow other teams to either move ahead of them or close the gap on them.

Yes. What is the problem here? You don't believe McLaren will not use KERS next year? Or understand why they would?

But all the 2009 F1 teams have agreed to drop KERS for 2010 as teams such as Ferrari and BMW have discovered that the power advantage it gives is not worth the extra weight the cars have to carry.

Linky

I just can't get my head around this concept, especially when you consider that teams spend £Millions every year, developing a car just so that it can go fractions of a second faster.

So you don't believe none of the FOTA cars in 2010 won't be running KERS?

I believe a team would rather win than come 2nd. Even if that means using equipment (KERS) that other teams have decided not to use. Remember, the FIA is not banning KERS, hence, it is well within the rules.

It isn't the FIA rules that obliges McLaren to race in 2010 without KERS. It is an agreement between the FOTA teams because on the whole the FOTA teams don't like KERS and McLaren, like it or not, won't use KERS next year.

I know that Brits love losers and underdogs, but building a car which is slower is something that I can't see McLaren doing. McLaren have in the past done everything possible (legal and illegal) to win and now they have the opportunity to gain an advantage with a legal device, they are going to throw it away???

It won't be slower than the other cars. It is almost as if you think McLaren without KERS next year would be slower than the other cars? I think it is the illegal things that means McLaren is trying to rebuild its reputation amongst the other teams. If not running KERS helps them get along with the other teams, and allow them to take part in a say in the future of F1, why wouldn't they?

Anyway, lets just wait and see what happens.

Sure. I can't see Martin Whitmarsh deciding to run KERS just so that they increase their chances of winning when it would affect their reputation with the other teams. Of course they want to beat each other on the track but need/want to get on off the track for the good of the sport.

 

[Overlag]

The FIA is absolutely retarded giving Renault any penalty. As far as I can remember no penalty has been given for lose wheel nuts resulting the wheel coming off. Change the rules and make the teams aware of them. Before punishing something that used to be fine. Totally ridiculous.

not really, a loose wheel killed Henry Surtees last week and Massa's accident has kinda got the powers on edge. Not to mention its a rule that the car can only be released when its "safe" to do so.

A wheel coming off due to a fault is different to a wheel being not bolted on and safety clip thingy done. You can clearly see in the video that the guy dealing with the nut is still fiddling trying to get its safety clip to engage yet the guy that hands him the wheel already has his hand up as if they have finished the job, which they clearly haven't. The wheel nut man was still holding that when Alonso drove off, hes lucky not to have been hurt.

 

[dannyjo22]

I dont have signatures viewable, but are there still a lot of BrawnGP sigs or have they vanished?

No the "get in my sons" have moved back to mclaren.

Expect a fast return of the Hamilton fans that have all but a few been missing from last season.

If Buttons car stays reliable he may well pick up the 95 ish points he will likely need for the title. If his car breaks down in one race that the red bull scores well I think the gig is up.

Luckily this slide has happened before he has signed a deal for next year. He's in demand and should look at the team in this later part of the year as look at how they respond.

I expect him though to stay after all they have been through, which will end up being a mistake I fear.

 

[stockhausen]

...
Surely its better for McLaren to beat the other teams on identical rules rather than have people turn round and say, "Yeah well McLaren and Ferrari had KERS so they were always going to win". I wouldn't want people saying that about my team.

I can't believe that anyone could think that way

If the rules say that KERS is legal, then KERS is "within the rules".

All the teams want / would like to win. They aren't likely to do it by running exactly the same car as everyone else, they will do it by exploiting the rules to their best advantage. If Force India dreamt up some aerodynamic feature that was within the rules, gave them an advantage and they started winning races, do you seriously think that they would abandon it because they didn't want to be seen to be exploiting an advantage? Did Brawn abandon the double diffuser when everyone else complained? Of course not.

For years, we have had people saying that McLaren / Ferrari / Williams only won races because they had the best design teams; I can't recall them willingly losing designers or disbanding their design teams, can you?

If you seriously believe that the team principals would worry about people saying of their team, "Yeah, well they only won because they understood the rules and built a better car." you don't really have much of a competitive mind-set

 

[utajoker]

bugger button ive never cheered for him, nice fella and was the underdogs but still never interested me

dito that

 

[gord]

Expect a fast return of the Hamilton fans that have all but a few been missing from last season.

I think most of us have still been here.. we've just not got much to say..

 

[Duke]

Let the change of sigs begin

 

[clv101]

If Buttons car stays reliable he may well pick up the 95 ish points he will likely need for the title. If his car breaks down in one race that the red bull scores well I think the gig is up.

I expect Button will win more races this season. They will fix the car. We shouldn't be writing them off so fast, they've had a few bad races but why wouldn't they bounce back? Button said the car wasn't driving well when it used to - this isn't so much others getting faster (though of course this has happened) but the Brawn getting slower.

 

[JUMPURS]

look at every post ive made in f1 threads LH and SV are all ive ever cheered on

bugger button ive never cheered for him, nice fella and was the underdogs but still never interested me

bring on LH and MS, now both mclaren and ferrari have caught up

Seems like they have written off the season for Massa and are evaluating if he can race next year?

Would love to see a determined Kimi and Alonso in Ferrari.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5457068,00.html

 

[JUMPURS]

Also, didn't Villenuve say in Monaco he was looking for a way back? He could go back to Renault, with Alonso going to Ferrari?
4 world champions on the grid, would that be a first?

 

[this_is_gav]

4 world champions on the grid, would that be a first?

Oh the short memories.

1970 had 5 current champions.

Stewart (1969)
Brabham (1959, 1960, 1966)
Hulme (1967)
Surtees (1964)
Hill (1962, 1968)

If you count Rindt at Monza (where he was killed) then there were 6 champions (he was the first posthumous champion).

Future champions also running in 1970 were Fittipaldi, Andretti and

I'm sure there are plenty of instances with 4 champions too.

 

[JUMPURS]

1970 is too far back for me

Hey lately it has been a treat to have 2 or 3 on the grid

 

[Mr Jack]

I expect Button will win more races this season. They will fix the car. We shouldn't be writing them off so fast, they've had a few bad races but why wouldn't they bounce back? Button said the car wasn't driving well when it used to - this isn't so much others getting faster (though of course this has happened) but the Brawn getting slower.

Winning more races? Hmm... not so sure. I think we'll see a recovery from the current situation, but not the KERS equipped McLarens and Ferraris have acquired genuine pace and Red Bull has shown, once again, what Adrian Newey can do I can't see them pulling back to winning form not unless they can suddenly pull $50 million from somewhere.

 

[this_is_gav]

1970 is too far back for me

Hey lately it has been a treat to have 2 or 3 on the grid

Blame Schumacher for that.

Still, 1999 had Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen.

I think that'll be the last time we had 4 WDCs in the field.

 

[stockhausen]

Winning more races? Hmm... not so sure.
...
I can't see [Brawn GP] pulling back to winning form not unless they can suddenly pull $50 million from somewhere.

Maybe Branson wasn't so daft after all

 

[Type_R]

Maybe Branson wasn't so daft after all

I hate to say it, but I told all you guys so, Im sure someone can search it out. My numerous posts about BrawnGP needing to gain a title sponsor when they were winning races, when it looked like the Championship was in the bag!! Even if companies were not willing to pay as much as they wanted over 3-5 yrs, they should have taken whatever was coming their way.

Now its going to be even harder to get a title sponsor unless they can turn the car around, which I am sure Ross Brawn can, but the money for next year, seems non-existent.

 

[Overlag]

I hate to say it, but I told all you guys so, Im sure someone can search it out. My numerous posts about BrawnGP needing to gain a title sponsor when they were winning races, when it looked like the Championship was in the bag!! Even if companies were not willing to pay as much as they wanted over 3-5 yrs, they should have taken whatever was coming their way.

Now its going to be even harder to get a title sponsor unless they can turn the car around, which I am sure Ross Brawn can, but the money for next year, seems non-existent.

its game over i recon. There Budget sheets must look very scary with all the out's, and almost no in's.

 

[sunama]

I hate to say it, but I told all you guys so, ...

But did you expect BrawnGP to fall off the pace so quickly and so comprehensively?

Round7: Button won his last race in Turkey (based on genuine pace and not because Webber/Vettel crashed out).
Round8: Barrichello got 3rd, Button 6th.
Round9: BrawnGP can barely scrape together a points finish; Button:7th, Barrichello:10th (based on genuine pace).

In the space of 3 races, they've gone from total dominance to "grateful for any points they can get".

I for one havent ever seen a team go off the boil so quickly. And whats more, in the next GP, there is a chance that BrawnGP may go further backwards. If that happens, all we need is for Webber to win a couple of races and Button's lead will be completely wiped out.

I hope Button does it - I dont particularly like his playboy lifestyle, but I would rather an Englishman win the title than some German or Australian. (sorry CSl).

 

[Duke]

Lots of stats on Mclaren / Brawn over the season...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/07/...brawn-struggle-hungarian-grand-prix-analysis/

 

[Dutch Guy]

I for one havent ever seen a team go off the boil so quickly. And whats more, in the next GP, there is a chance that BrawnGP may go further backwards. If that happens, all we need is for Webber to win a couple of races and Button's lead will be completely wiped out.

Maybe Brawn stayed the same but the competition caught up?

Hamilton went from trundling around in last place being lapped to winning a race.

A lot of the speed came from the double diffuser and the fact the tyres suited their car more than they do now.