HUNGARORING - BUDAPEST - HUNGARY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 10/17

[Overlag]

But did you expect BrawnGP to fall off the pace so quickly and so comprehensively?

Round7: Button won his last race in Turkey (based on genuine pace and not because Webber/Vettel crashed out).
Round8: Barrichello got 3rd, Button 6th.
Round9: BrawnGP can barely scrape together a points finish; Button:7th, Barrichello:10th (based on genuine pace).

In the space of 3 races, they've gone from total dominance to "grateful for any points they can get".

I for one havent ever seen a team go off the boil so quickly. And whats more, in the next GP, there is a chance that BrawnGP may go further backwards. If that happens, all we need is for Webber to win a couple of races and Button's lead will be completely wiped out.

I hope Button does it - I dont particularly like his playboy lifestyle, but I would rather an Englishman win the title than some German or Australian. (sorry CSl).

Ross Brawn was hinting that maybe something they've changed on the car has resulted in less performance or balance. Ie the additions themself may have been good, but its spoilt other areas. With the lack of in season testing its going to be hard to find out where they started to go wrong.

such a shame, would have been nice seeing them winning a championship even if it was just 1 season they lasted.

 

[FrankJH]

Blame Schumacher for that.

Still, 1999 had Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen.

I think that'll be the last time we had 4 WDCs in the field.

pity only two of them where in competitive cars at the time

I seem to recall that not so very long ago, one of the teams took advantage of the rules in a way that gave them a distinct competitive advantage . . . it may have been Brawn GP

Get your facts right - Brawn where not the only team to see the oportunity of the double diffuser for Aus (and the rest of the season) its just that Brawn managed to do it better than anyone else to start with (not at all what you are insinuating)

 

[MarcLister]

I can't believe that anyone could think that way

If the rules say that KERS is legal, then KERS is "within the rules".

All the teams want / would like to win. They aren't likely to do it by running exactly the same car as everyone else, they will do it by exploiting the rules to their best advantage. If Force India dreamt up some aerodynamic feature that was within the rules, gave them an advantage and they started winning races, do you seriously think that they would abandon it because they didn't want to be seen to be exploiting an advantage? Did Brawn abandon the double diffuser when everyone else complained? Of course not.

For years, we have had people saying that McLaren / Ferrari / Williams only won races because they had the best design teams; I can't recall them willingly losing designers or disbanding their design teams, can you?

I know KERS is within the rules. However the FOTA teams have agreed not to use KERS. I'm not making this up. It is fact. Force India can do what they want as they aren't a FOTA team. And there wouldn't be any agreeement on some aerodynamic feature anyway. FOTA have decided between them that KERS isn't worth it and so won't use it next year despite it still being allowed by the rules and regs of F1.

If you seriously believe that the team principals would worry about people saying of their team, "Yeah, well they only won because they understood the rules and built a better car." you don't really have much of a competitive mind-set

It isn't a case of understanding the rules. Most of the teams have a KERS system. It is that the FOTA teams have decided not to use it. My opinion on some cars having KERS is a bit like the prospective rules the FIA announced a while back about teams having a budget limit but technical freedom or no budget limit and technical limitations; effectively leading to a two-tier championship.

And did I actually say "team principals"? I thought I said "teams".

 

[sunama]

Right gents:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8172310.stm

Looks like MS isnt ruling out a return.

I for one would much rather see Alonso installed with immediate effect at Ferrari.

Also, I want to see Kimi put under major pressure. I dont feel that MS would be able to do this. The guy is not race fit and has had no chance to mentally or physically prepare himself for the challenge of driving an F1 car to the limit over a full race distance.

Alonso is ready, willing and able (but subject to contract) and was the guy who beat MS to the WDC, twice, resulting in MS's retirement.

 

[sunama]

I know KERS is within the rules. However the FOTA teams have agreed not to use KERS. I'm not making this up. It is fact.

At the time that most teams agreed to remove KERS, KERS cars werent performing great. In fact, at this time, I remember Ferrari's KERS system was causing serious problems, forcing Kimi to run without it. I remember BMW soon abandoned it. KERS wasnt great.

Fast forward a few months and KERS is now proving a fantastic weapon to have. Red Bull cars, as fast as they are, have 2 frustrated drivers who have no KERS and are making comments to suggest that they would like to have KERS, as they are getting battered on the long straights and start-lines.

I don't believe that any team (or principle) would willingly give up a weapon that is working so well and is helping move their cars up the grid, once the lights go green. If that principle is willing to forgoe performance, just so he is liked by other teams, that man should not be in charge of the team.

You have men in the factory who are working their backsides off, night and day, long shifts, not seeing their families/wives, etc, just so that their cars can gain a 0.1s/lap advantage and the principle is worried about a "genteleman's agreement". I for one, would be livid if I was a worker at McLaren's factory and they axe the KERS system, which I would've spent many hours developing, especially when I know that the KERS device is not illegal or banned.

PS. btw Marc, you come over as a nice guy. But in F1, being competitive is the most important quality for a driver/team to succeed - this is something that you don't seem to understand. Quite literally, nice guys finish last as they get walked over. The reason why I rate Hamilton so highly, is because he is willing to do whatever it takes to win (including, cheating and lying), just like MS did before him.

 

[FrankJH]

And disqualifying an entire team from the next GP is going to remove that debris in the previous race?.

debris could be an endfence of a front wing - completely different to a *****off big wheel

it was obvious that dangerous before Alonso left the pit lane - thats pretty much certain. The penalty is to discourage such stupid behaviour in the future from any team

Suddenly pushing out draconian penalties for events which previously went unpunished is... quite extreme, to be kind.

I suspect the Renault legal representatives will have a field day in Paris.
.

could be considered leniant if someone had been killed by that wheel that ended up god knows where under its own steam

I hope the book gets thrown at them for being so ****** arrogant and continueing

Well, given that Brawn knew that Rubens had broken rear suspension from the first lap of qualifying... is the day before the incident in question soon enough?.

hows that the day before? If Brawn have admitted to knowing about it DURING Qualifying and the event happened within the hour - its clearly not the day before

If you are talking about two seperate circumstances (ie the wheel and the spring) there is no connection at all

Yes, it would be unfair to suggest that they knew it was apart to rip itself apart and litter the track with 900g springs and the like, but it was dangerous and they did send him out again regardless... even Barrichello himself said he was struggling to drive it on the straights, nevermind through the corners, so it's hardly a stretch of the imagination to suggest he might have crashed when it did break.

Talk about going from one extreme to another - an INTERNAL spring works its way onto the track and bounces along (probably with the assistance of the cross winds) the track and tracigally injurs a driver - thats completely different to a wheel wieghing 20 times more OBVIOUSLY loose as soon as its released unsafely from the pits


On performance - its clear that Brawn have lost pace rather than everyone actually getting that much better (dont get me wrong McLaren, Red Bull and possibly Ferrari have all improved a lot) but I still believe IF Brawn can sort out the major issue they can be back at the front without too much delay. Its not looking great for the Championship so far but its not unrecoverable either, especially with the long summer break

 

[Type_R]

I, would be very very surprised to see MS back in an F1 car, especially one that has been of late rather rubbish. Its not as if Ferrari are in the fight for either Championship, so why would:

1. MS risk an accident like Felipe for little gain
2. Ferrari pay MS to drive the car into a non-points paying position when any Piquet could do the same
3. Ferrari get Alonso to come across early, apart for him to get into the car earlier, it would serve little purpose either for Ferrari or Renault (see point 2).
4. And I reiterate point 2.

It would be great to see Davidson or Sato in that Ferrari for the rest of the season, then Vettel & Kimi/Alonso next year

 

[MarcLister]

At the time that most teams agreed to remove KERS, KERS cars werent performing great. In fact, at this time, I remember Ferrari's KERS system was causing serious problems, forcing Kimi to run without it. I remember BMW soon abandoned it. KERS wasnt great.

Fast forward a few months and KERS is now proving a fantastic weapon to have. Red Bull cars, as fast as they are, have 2 frustrated drivers who have no KERS and are making comments to suggest that they would like to have KERS, as they are getting battered on the long straights and start-lines.

The problem here then, as I see it, is that the FIA cocked up on the KERS rules. They said, "you can run KERS if you want". They should have either made it a compulsory item or not bothered at all. I'm in the not bothered at all camp. Partly because KERS is always spelled Kers in the media as if its some kind of name rather than KERS as an acronym.

I don't believe that any team (or principle) would willingly give up a weapon that is working so well and is helping move their cars up the grid, once the lights go green. If that principle is willing to forgoe performance, just so he is liked by other teams, that man should not be in charge of the team.

So are you saying you don't believe the teams have agreed to get rid of KERS? I'm not doubting that some teams would like to use KERS next year but collectively the FOTA teams have agreed to not use KERS next year. Now unless they change their mind as a group of teams and say we can use KERS if we want, the only way for McLaren or Red Bull etc to use KERS is to be ejected from FOTA. The teams want to be part of FOTA so that they benefit from collective negotiating rights with the FIA/Bernie/CVC etc and have a greater say in the running of the sport, I believe.

You have men in the factory who are working their backsides off, night and day, long shifts, not seeing their families/wives, etc, just so that their cars can gain a 0.1s/lap advantage and the principle is worried about a "genteleman's agreement". I for one, would be livid if I was a worker at McLaren's factory and they axe the KERS system, which I would've spent many hours developing, especially when I know that the KERS device is not illegal or banned.

Well if Mr KERS expert wants to be livid he can go and work for a non-FOTA team or go off to another formula that uses KERS.

PS. btw Marc, you come over as a nice guy. But in F1, being competitive is the most important quality for a driver/team to succeed - this is something that you don't seem to understand. Quite literally, nice guys finish as they get walked over. The reason why I rate Hamilton so highly, is because he is willing to do whatever it takes to win (including, cheating and lying), just like MS did before him.

No I do know that. Damon Hill and Mika Hakkinen might disagree with you about getting walked over mind. This is why I like Alonso a lot. He's got very few scruples and was prepared to screw McLaren up to get his own way. And whilst I hated Schumacher when he was in F1 I now have a lot of respect for him for getting himself into a position in F1 to do what he did and I understand why he did it. I would do what he did if I was "the greatest living F1 driver" ever and in a brilliant team that thought the sun, moon and sky shined out of my botty-boo. But since I, apparently, don't understand competitiveness I probably wouldn't eh?

So what is the issue here? You don't believe that the FOTA teams have agreed to not use KERS next year? Or that you don't understand why a team principal would? I'm getting quite fed up of saying that the FOTA teams have agreed to discontinue the use of KERS. I'm not making it up. Could you please explain what you disagree with me on? The agreement between FOTA teams to abandon KERS for 2010 or the logic of teams saying, "OK I'll not use KERS next year, even though I want to."

 

[sunama]

3. Ferrari get Alonso to come across early, apart for him to get into the car earlier, it would serve little purpose either for Ferrari or Renault (see point 2).

If Ferrari get Alonso in early, he will be able to get used to the personnel and Ferrari's way of doing things, before the 2010 season begins. He will also get used to how the car handles (remember the 2010 car will be an evolution of the 2009 car).

If Alonso comes in now, he will stand a better chance of winning the title in 2010 than if he were to come in totally fresh in 2010, having to get used to a new car/team and to then start winning races immediately.

In summary, to boost Ferrari's title winning chances in 2010, it would make sense to bring in Alonso now.

Oh and btw, on the strength of the last race, Ferrari are able to compete at the front.

 

[stockhausen]

At the time that most teams agreed to remove KERS, KERS cars werent performing great. In fact, at this time, I remember Ferrari's KERS system was causing serious problems, forcing Kimi to run without it. I remember BMW soon abandoned it. KERS wasnt great.

Fast forward a few months and KERS is now proving a fantastic weapon to have. Red Bull cars, as fast as they are, have 2 frustrated drivers who have no KERS and are making comments to suggest that they would like to have KERS, as they are getting battered on the long straights and start-lines.

I don't believe that any team (or principal) would willingly give up a weapon that is working so well and is helping move their cars up the grid, once the lights go green. If that principal is willing to forgoe performance, just so he is liked by other teams, that man should not be in charge of the team.

You have men in the factory who are working their backsides off, night and day, long shifts, not seeing their families/wives, etc, just so that their cars can gain a 0.1s/lap advantage and the principal is worried about a "genteleman's agreement". I for one, would be livid if I was a worker at McLaren's factory and they axe the KERS system, which I would've spent many hours developing, especially when I know that the KERS device is not illegal or banned.
...

I couldn't have expressed it better myself or Q-F-T as they say.

PS. btw Marc, you come over as a nice guy. But ...

I'll drink to that.

Oy, Marc, on yer feet, it's your round

 

[sunama]

So what is the issue here? You don't believe that the FOTA teams have agreed to not use KERS next year? Or that you don't understand why a team principal would?

There is no doubt that McLaren have agreed, verbally, to discontinue use of KERS in 2010. However, that means nothing if after the 2009 season ends, McLaren come to the conclusion that KERS is the greatest thing since sliced bread. If that happens, I can't see McLaren honouring their agreement with other FOTA teams.

As I stated, at the time the agreement was reached, KERS was not working well. In fact some team/drivers decided to run without it.

You are making out as if McLaren will be happy to remove a device that is giving them a race winning advantage, simply because of some gentleman's agreement. I don't believe this to be the case.

And like you suggested in your post, you have to be totally ruthless to get anywhere in F1 (unless you are Hakkinen. Note: D.Hill got shafted by his Williams team, with whom he won the title with. He didnt play the game and ended moved to a team whose name I cant even remember. In 1992, Mansell also got shafted, after winning the title and ended up Indycar racing in 1993, while Prost, cunningly got himself a seat in the best car of 1993. In general, in F1, nice/honest guys really do finish last).

 

[stockhausen]

... nice/honest guys really do finish last).

 

[Bennah]

Also, didn't Villenuve say in Monaco he was looking for a way back? He could go back to Renault, with Alonso going to Ferrari?
4 world champions on the grid, would that be a first?

Il agree with that. Would be good to see. Always like Jaques even if he could be daft sometimes.

 

[MarcLister]

I'll drink to that.

Oy, Marc, on yer feet, it's your round

Haha.

You are making out as if McLaren will be happy to remove a device that is giving them a race winning advantage, simply because of some gentleman's agreement. I don't believe this to be the case.

I don't think I've said McLaren are happy to drop KERS. They don't want to but for the sake of unity in F1 amongst the teams they will. Albeit reluctantly. Have you watched the post race BBC F1 forum? With a brief interview with John Howett? Where he suggests that teams will argue and fight over their interpretation of rules but won't argue about gentleman's agreements?

And like you suggested in your post, you have to be totally ruthless to get anywhere in F1 (unless you are Hakkinen. Note: D.Hill got shafted by his Williams team, with whom he won the title with. He didnt play the game and ended moved to a team whose name I cant even remember. In 1992, Mansell also got shafted, after winning the title and ended up Indycar racing in 1993, while Prost, cunningly got himself a seat in the best car of 1993. In general, in F1, nice/honest guys really do finish last).

Yes Damon lost out there. I wonder if Williams and Head regret that considering Head did say after 1997 that Villeneuve took his time winning the title in such a good car, with less competition from his team-mate than Damon had the year earlier. When I read that Head had said that I couldn't help but wonder if Williams/Head thought perhaps they should have kept Damon as Damon/Villeneuve would have been stronger than Villeneuve/Frentzen and as a result either one of Damon/Villeneuve would have won the title anyway and perhaps sooner than Villeneuve did with Frentzen around?

 

[Mr Jack]

I don't think I've said McLaren are happy to drop KERS. They don't want to but for the sake of unity in F1 amongst the teams they will. Albeit reluctantly.

Yeah, McLaren know well that the crazies of the FIA are a bigger threat to their continued success than any of the other teams. Dropping KERS will sting, but Max's idea of what F1 should be would destroy them.

 

[stockhausen]

Piquet and Briatore seem to have a very happy working relationship at the moment: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77393

It's not true that there's a technical difference of seven tenths between Alonso's and Piquet's car. ... The technical difference has always been minimal and never longer than one race.

Nice one Alonso

Flavio is a business man, but he doesn't understand s*** about F1 ... He only thinks about money, at how much money he can pocket in everything he's involved.
...
Webber has been in F1 since 2001, he started in a different era, when testing wasn't limited. He's probably done more than 20,000 kms in testing, so it's not a fair comparison. Now the situation is more difficult for a driver with little experience.

And besides that, I have to fight against Briatore and Alonso himself, who is a fantastic driver.

I'm astonished that Alonso isn't more supportive, he was always such a good mate of the rookie Lewis Hamiltion

[Briatore is] a man with no friends.

You've not seen his current squeeze then Nelson

 

[Dutch Guy]

Ouch, looks like Piquet will not drive a Renault again

I kinda feel sorry for him that he is in a **** team with a **** teammate and a **** teamboss (and a car with an ugly paintjob )

 

[MarcLister]

Yeah, McLaren know well that the crazies of the FIA are a bigger threat to their continued success than any of the other teams. Dropping KERS will sting, but Max's idea of what F1 should be would destroy them.

I have found someone who understands what I'm saying?! And, perhaps, agrees with me?!

 

[Wicksta]

You've not seen his current squeeze then Nelson

Yes she really is with him for friendship. ;

 

[dannyjo22]

But did you expect BrawnGP to fall off the pace so quickly and so comprehensively?

I for one havent ever seen a team go off the boil so quickly. And whats more, in the next GP, there is a chance that BrawnGP may go further backwards. If that happens, all we need is for Webber to win a couple of races and Button's lead will be completely wiped out.

I hope Button does it - I dont particularly like his playboy lifestyle, but I would rather an Englishman win the title than some German or Australian. (sorry CSl).

He needs 2 more wins really and I just cannot see them coming. One fo the red bulls should take it now. I just dont know which one. Webber doesnt have the outright pace of Vettel but race after race vettel makes errors. Tough to call which one will take it.

Button had a playboy lifestyle for all of 2 seasons at the beginning. He's hardly that same person now. Infact he's the most approachable on the grid these days.

I hate to say it, but I told all you guys so, Im sure someone can search it out. My numerous posts about BrawnGP needing to gain a title sponsor when they were winning races, when it looked like the Championship was in the bag!! Even if companies were not willing to pay as much as they wanted over 3-5 yrs, they should have taken whatever was coming their way.

Now its going to be even harder to get a title sponsor unless they can turn the car around, which I am sure Ross Brawn can, but the money for next year, seems non-existent.

Whatever was coming their way was nothing like enough 250k per race is what they were offered by branson and if they couldn't get better they may as well give up.

Its not the lack of money this year thats killed them more the saving they made in wages by letting people go. That lack of personel is showing. It also shows why some sort of budget or personel cap is needed to give anyone a chance of competing with teams with several hundred more people.