HUNGARORING - BUDAPEST - HUNGARY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 10/17

FrankJH said:
I stated the WHEELMAN knew not the lollipop man (if he didnt then he should be fired immediately) - therefore with radio communication the whole team knew before Alonso hit the track again - he should also have been aware the bolt didnt go on properly (to cause the disc to not fit as it should
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I never challenged anything you said about the wheelman. I was merely adding another point onto my post - I would have quoted you if I was challenging something, as I've done elsewhere. :\

FrankJH said:
yet it was VISIBLY obvious on the tv (several other people have posted the same as well as numerous commentators) that the wheel was far too loose and a dangerous situation IMMEDIATELY from Alonso's release
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Care to show some of those examples, because I'm unaware anyone - possibly even including the guy on the right-front - knew IMMEDIATELY that it was loose. That guy presumably thought (or hoped and kept his mouth shut) he'd managed to click it into place just as the car left, as he just turned around and went into the garage with everyone else, seemingly without a care - not the actions I'd expect of someone who knows he's just failed to tighten the cover.

The wheel itself was on. The gun-man had already done his job - he'd stepped aside and left the other guy to do the cover. It wouldn't have come loose if that cover had clicked into place.


FrankJH said:
I havent seen anywhere where Brawn have stated that they knew how serious it was immediately RB was going out of the pits - as indicated above if a blown tyre can replicate the same as a loose wheel, symptom y could be numerous different things wrong with something not immediately visible with the suspension
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Barrichello himself said it was broken from the start of qualifying in an interview after he failed to get into Q3. I know he's a bit of a moaner, but he's hardly got a reputation as a liar. As before, they presumably didn't know just how broken it was, but my argument that they knew it was broken remains valid.
 
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The title race was similar last year. A lot of poor fortune and weather moments had race winners finishing out the points also IIRC. Lest we for get the team is a last minuite throw together and although mostly the same as they were at Honda, they've had to change a hell of a lot to be a race winning team so quickly.

It's still early doors, but this last race wuali was bizzare and put the branws out of position and other teams have made a dramatic move forward. The Brawns have always had the col weather problem and in trying to comnbat this they've lost their hot weather tyre management.

I look forward to finally seeing some close racing between these emerging top teams.
 
this_is_gav said:
You realise that's not the original footage? It has another 10 seconds or so cut from it. The point where Brundle says "and his front-right wheel hasn't gone on properly" he actually said as Alonso was heading between turns 1 and 2 on the original broadcast, not as Alonso was heading out of the pits, as it shows in that clip you posted. :)
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It was approximately 20 seconds in the original broadcast at the point Brundle mentioned it was hanging off and almost a minute after he mentioned it when the wheel actually came off, if anyone was wondering.
 
clv101 said:
People are over analysing this. There just isn’t enough data to backup the conclusions people are coming out with. Round9 was compromised by a poor qualifying. Had Q3 been smooth they would likely have been a couple of places higher. We know in the first half of the season the car was working great, good balance and easy to drive. Last race it had lost that, there is no reason to suspect the car won’t be working nicely again in Spain. It’s silly to write off a car that’s already won 6 of the last 10 races!
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There is a saying in motor racing though, and that is you are only as good as your last race.

Brawn were expected to bounce back after the previous two races, where they could excuse their performance on temperature and predominance of fast corners which favoured the RBRs, yet didn't. Whilst Button may have qualified low, remember he was bounced by both Toyotas who were running the same, non optimal, strategy as himself so he wasn't really showing much race pace either.
 
Dutch Guy said:
I think it was very obvious that something was wrong the moment Alonso started driving, at least it was possible to see the carbon crap thingie not fastened properly and as mentioned in this thread, if that thingie is loose the wheelnut is loose.
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Where are you getting that from? We've previously seen cars whizzing round and round with those things loose without incident. Has something changed?
 
Dutch Guy said:
That's what I meant, Renault was punished for something that could have happened and it was avoidable.
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F1 cars are released with fuel hoses still attached, air guns still atached, flames burning on the body work and into the path of each other. There is not a meeting over a cup of tea to decide if the car is road worthy or not to then say "well lets send him out anyway"
Once the lollypop is down the car is off. Until there is a new rule that allows a 5 second breather for example, this kind of thing will always happen. The penalty is also inconsistant wth everything thats gone before and harsh.
Meanwhile people are excited over the prospect of a driver who damages cars for points, coming back.
 
Regarding the arguments re: KERS - if they really want energy recovery systems in F1 then ******* bring back ******* turbochargers! Why waste the energy of that exhaust gas? Mandate a fuel limit, a pop-off valve to limit overall boost to just under silly bugger levels, ban refuelling and allow teams to use smaller, turbo'd engines with an equivalency formula for N/A engines (more capacity and a different fuel limit). Then you get a return to the old ways of managing the boost so you don't end up running out of fuel and the PTOT (Push To OverTake) button for the turbo cars, and the 'atmo' cars running lighter due to needing less fuel and generally having a small reliability advantage.

Or is that crazy talk, and we'd much rather continue using a completely pointess, gimmicky and fundamentally **** battery-based setup because everyone loves hybrid petrol/electric cars these days.....
 
JRS said:
Or is that crazy talk, and we'd much rather continue using a completely pointess, gimmicky and fundamentally **** battery-based setup because everyone loves hybrid petrol/electric cars these days.....
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It's not that everyone loves them, just thats were the money will be in the not too distant future.
When we are forced to drive Green cars, I think people will wish KERS had been developed to its optimum.
 
JUMPURS said:
IIt is the same with Ferrari, they are better now without KERS than they where with it.
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You are aware that Ferrari are still using KERS right?

JRS said:
Regarding the arguments re: KERS - if they really want energy recovery systems in F1 then ******* bring back ******* turbochargers! Why waste the energy of that exhaust gas? Mandate a fuel limit, a pop-off valve to limit overall boost to just under silly bugger levels, ban refuelling and allow teams to use smaller, turbo'd engines with an equivalency formula for N/A engines (more capacity and a different fuel limit). Then you get a return to the old ways of managing the boost so you don't end up running out of fuel and the PTOT (Push To OverTake) button for the turbo cars, and the 'atmo' cars running lighter due to needing less fuel and generally having a small reliability advantage.
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Mr Jack said:
Where are you getting that from? We've previously seen cars whizzing round and round with those things loose without incident. Has something changed?
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Renault either didn't get the locking feature which is designed to stop the nut coming loose on or theirs isn't man enough to hold the nut in place with the aero device spinning.
 
Type_R said:
Dont worry he is far too clever, far too good with absolutely nothing to prove to come back. :):)
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Nothing to prove? How about the big one, like racing a team mate equally? Instead of retiring and robbing his fans, as soon as Luca grabbed Kimi from McLaren. The true greats measured themselves equally against each other e.g Mansell, Prost, Senna. And they are the classic races to watch. Not Rubens pulling over or Massa faking gearbox problems to let him past. Schumacher won all his WCs against average opposition in many peoples views and restricted team mates, but they still consider him to be a great due to his stats.
 
JRS said:
Regarding the arguments re: KERS - if they really want energy recovery systems in F1 then ******* bring back ******* turbochargers! Why waste the energy of that exhaust gas? Mandate a fuel limit, a pop-off valve to limit overall boost to just under silly bugger levels, ban refuelling and allow teams to use smaller, turbo'd engines with an equivalency formula for N/A engines (more capacity and a different fuel limit). Then you get a return to the old ways of managing the boost so you don't end up running out of fuel and the PTOT (Push To OverTake) button for the turbo cars, and the 'atmo' cars running lighter due to needing less fuel and generally having a small reliability advantage.

Or is that crazy talk, and we'd much rather continue using a completely pointess, gimmicky and fundamentally **** battery-based setup because everyone loves hybrid petrol/electric cars these days.....
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Equivalency formulas rarely work though and you will end up with everyone running the same type of engine, again, which will just end up costing loads.
 
SC04 said:
Nothing to prove? How about the big one, like racing a team mate equally? Instead of retiring and robbing his fans, as soon as Luca grabbed Kimi from McLaren. The true greats measured themselves equally against each other e.g Mansell, Prost, Senna. And they are the classic races to watch. Not Rubens pulling over or Massa faking gearbox problems to let him past. Schumacher won all his WCs against average opposition in many peoples views and restricted team mates, but they still consider him to be a great due to his stats.
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Mika Hakkinen, average?
 
SC04 said:
Nothing to prove? How about the big one, like racing a team mate equally? Instead of retiring and robbing his fans, as soon as Luca grabbed Kimi from McLaren. The true greats measured themselves equally against each other e.g Mansell, Prost, Senna. And they are the classic races to watch. Not Rubens pulling over or Massa faking gearbox problems to let him past. Schumacher won all his WCs against average opposition in many peoples views and restricted team mates, but they still consider him to be a great due to his stats.
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Just watch his first qualifying against Senna (the greatest & most complete F1 driver to date in my book). Enough said.
 
Alibaba99 said:
Equivalency formulas rarely work though and you will end up with everyone running the same type of engine, again, which will just end up costing loads.
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It used to work rather well - turbo runners versus DFVs. You'd need to use the rulebook to give each side of the formula advantages and disadvantages obviously, some days and tracks one design will probably come out on top, other days and tracks will see the other design come to the fore.

Not sure I understand your point about it costing lots of money - KERS hasn't exactly been an exercise in cost-cutting (aside from those who never bothered developing it in the first place of course....), and turbocharging is a pretty well understood technology these days. And at least it's a technology that can actually tie into road car design and production properly.
 
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