Ian McNaughton goes out against The Way it's Meant to be Played

kppanic · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:16

Shocky-FM said:
DX11 will still be useless until games support it, just because nvidia release a card with support doesnt mean we will suddenly see loads of games with DX11 support.

There you go!

DX was supposed to be the common API and how they're implemented at low level is upto ATI or nVidia.

I don't know why it is so hard to get a common standard and see who does what best.

Game developers, too, should have a discipline and stick to DX sandbox.

Then everyone will be adhering to something that Microsoft created.

Oh wait...

Major_Knox · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:19

It's a BUSINESS, you just don't UNDERSTAND!

Rimsy · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:30

Funny how this thread dies when NV are shown not to be the terrible baby eating grandmother beating monsters you sad little people so desparately want them to be....

TheRealDeal · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:38

Rimsy said:
Funny how this thread dies when NV are shown not to be the terrible baby eating grandmother beating monsters you sad little people so desparately want them to be....

They have shown nothing tbh. AA is working for nvidia cards in the game but nv never made the game so aa should still work and does with an ati card if you change the id of the card. Why would the developers leave aa out for ati cards when it clearly does work if you change the ati cards id to a nvidia one on the demo. The champions league football being on might be why the thread has went a little dead. It still stinks imo.

Pendu · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:49

I think AMD is more ****ed off with the fact that you can't make a fair comparison in benchmarking, If you turn on AA, you would be comparing apples to oranges, therefore ridding any idea of a fair comparison between two cards from different IHVs.

Hence why the AMD blogger said to make a "fair comparison" don't use AA when benchmarking the game.

sturmtruppe · 29 Sep 2009 at 21:57

TheRealDeal said:
They have shown nothing tbh. AA is working for nvidia cards in the game but nv never made the game so aa should still work and does with an ati card if you change the id of the card. Why would the developers leave aa out for ati cards when it clearly does work if you change the ati cards id to a nvidia one on the demo. The champions league football being on might be why the thread has went a little dead. It still stinks imo.

I beleive Legal reasons stop them from implementing something on ATI's behalf, which could have lead to ATI taking legal action against Nvidia (ill have to look it up when i get back into work for the exact violation)- and they would have. Pppl don't seem to understand, its business - at the end of the day you make your money work for you and since nvidia has more money they can do more with it.

Shocky-FM · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:18

kppanic said:
There you go!

DX was supposed to be the common API and how they're implemented at low level is upto ATI or nVidia.

I don't know why it is so hard to get a common standard and see who does what best.

Game developers, too, should have a discipline and stick to DX sandbox.

Then everyone will be adhering to something that Microsoft created.

Oh wait...

That’s all well and good but it won't happen, games take years to develop, they can't update their games every time a new directx version is launched during development, neither are they willing to update PC versions of console games for DX10/11, infact if they were forced to use DX10/11 we probably would never see PC versions.

Hopefully from what I understand it's easier to go from DX10 to DX11 so this could change, however there are still allot of DX9 based games out there and still under development.

drunkenmaster · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:20

sturmtruppe said:
I beleive Legal reasons stop them from implementing something on ATI's behalf, which could have lead to ATI taking legal action against Nvidia (ill have to look it up when i get back into work for the exact violation)- and they would have. Pppl don't seem to understand, its business - at the end of the day you make your money work for you and since nvidia has more money they can do more with it.

Nvidia don't have more money, for one thing, and secondly, its not just business. Theres anti-competition laws for a reason, there is just business, then there IS unfair business. Its why countless business's have been sued succesfully for anti-competitive practices.

Why do so many people use "its just business" as an argument, business isn't a lawless, do anything area, where companys can do as they please with no consequences, where on earth does anyone get that obtuse idea from? One of the biggest companies around, Intel, has been sued for anti-competitive practices a bunch of times, as have, thousands of other companies.

But because its Nvidia "its just business" so its all fair in love and war?

Duran · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:23

Final8y said:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235601

ati pwnd? if they keep their current philosophy their market share wont go above 30%.

/thread

D13 · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:24

drunkenmaster said:
Nvidia don't have more money, for one thing, and secondly, its not just business. Theres anti-competition laws for a reason, there is just business, then there IS unfair business. Its why countless business's have been sued succesfully for anti-competitive practices.

Why do so many people use "its just business" as an argument, business isn't a lawless, do anything area, where companys can do as they please with no consequences, where on earth does anyone get that obtuse idea from? One of the biggest companies around, Intel, has been sued for anti-competitive practices a bunch of times, as have, thousands of other companies.

But because its Nvidia "its just business" so its all fair in love and war?

but if nvidia are so blatantly anti-competitive as so many ppl point out, then where are the ati law suits?

drunkenmaster · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:25

Shocky-FM said:
That’s all well and good but it won't happen, games take years to develop, they can't update their games every time a new directx version is launched during development, neither are they willing to update PC versions of console games for DX10/11, infact if they were forced to use DX10/11 we probably would never see PC versions.

Hopefully from what I understand it's easier to go from DX10 to DX11 so this could change, however there are still allot of DX9 based games out there and still under development.

Firstly, there are several console games that have come out on the PC with DX10 added, but it offers very little thanks to Nvidia having DX10 neutered, however Assasins Creed even had dx10.1, as quite a few consoles games would have had. However when DX10 was borked, developement was probably stopped on many titles because, frankly it offered very little, had DX10 released as originally intended, many more pc games and console ports would have had meaningful dx10 in.

DX10 to 11 is easier because, DX11 is what you write in and any features unavailable will simply scale down to dx10 versions. Like dx9 would scale back to dx8 things on older hardware. DX9 was built upon and improved older versions and maintained complete compatibility(though games won't necessarily implement older versions of features meaning games did have limits to the hardware they required).

DX10 is completely new, its like having DX7 years ago, and DX11 is simply built over the top with complete compatibility.

mmj_uk · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:25

TheRealDeal said:
They have shown nothing tbh. AA is working for nvidia cards in the game but nv never made the game so aa should still work and does with an ati card if you change the id of the card. Why would the developers leave aa out for ati cards when it clearly does work if you change the ati cards id to a nvidia one on the demo. The champions league football being on might be why the thread has went a little dead. It still stinks imo.

Read the article they didn't leave out AA for ATi cards specifically, it was just never "added" because AMD didn't work with them to enable it.

It may only require a small tweak but if AMD aren't pro-active about working with developers then these things aren't going to get done, they can't expect NVidia to do testing with ATI cards/drivers and most game developers probably couldn't care less about fancy features like AA working ingame when they can be forced on through drivers anyway.

drunkenmaster · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:29

D13 said:
but if nvidia are so blatantly anti-competitive as so many ppl point out, then where are the ati law suits?

Because cases take time, are very hard to prove, and Nvidia haven't been so obviously blatant about it in the past, optimising for their own hardware isn't illegal, proving they paid the company to remove features is very hard, this time around that would be easier but still very hard to prosecute.

Intel lost their recent case, but are still appealing and the lawsuit took years, cost millions to carry out and in the end, didn't really hurt Intel or change them at all.

Duran, I'm unsure how a statement saying they didn't do anything proves they didn't do anything. AA worked in the demo, it works when the game doesn't detect ATi hardware, what they are saying is proven to be untrue. Its proven, without question that upon seeing ATi hardware it disables a feature that is already there, and worked in the demo(with a work around). In the final game they made it even more difficult, but again, without the ATi hardware ID, it works fine. Its actively disabled, saying it isn't doesn't make it true.

MikeHunt79 · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:29

mmj_uk said:
Read the article they didn't leave out AA for ATi cards specifically, it was just never "added" because AMD didn't work with them to enable it.

Should be interesting to see if AA works on other 3d chipsets, such as the intel gma950...

drunkenmaster · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:30

mmj_uk said:
Read the article they didn't leave out AA for ATi cards specifically, it was just never "added" because AMD didn't work with them to enable it.

It may only require a small tweak but if AMD aren't pro-active about working with developers then these things aren't going to get done, they can't expect NVidia to do testing with ATI cards/drivers and most game developers probably don't care about fancy features like AA.

This is untrue, it actively REMOVES THE FEATURE upon detecting ATi hardware. When you hide the hardware ID< it works, completely fine.

TheRealDeal · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:31

mmj_uk said:
Read the article they didn't leave out AA for ATi cards specifically, it was just never "added" because AMD didn't work with them to enable it.

It may only require a small tweak but if AMD aren't pro-active about working with developers then these things aren't going to get done, they can't expect NVidia to do testing with ATI cards/drivers and most game developers probably don't care about fancy features like AA.

Most developers don't care about aa is laughable as most games i play have aa as an option these companies must have cared. So now you are telling me these same developers could not just have added in id's for ati cards to have aa which in my opinion would have been a plus for ea but not for nvidia. The whole thing just does not add up for me.

mmj_uk · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:45

drunkenmaster said:
This is untrue, it actively REMOVES THE FEATURE upon detecting ATi hardware. When you hide the hardware ID< it works, completely fine.

Well if that's the case then it's pretty underhanded, but if it's the opposite and the feature only gets enable if it detects an NVidia device ID it's different.

mmj_uk · 29 Sep 2009 at 22:46

TheRealDeal said:
Most developers don't care about aa is laughable as most games i play have aa as an option these companies must have cared. So now you are telling me these same developers could not just have added in id's for ati cards to have aa which in my opinion would have been a plus for ea but not for nvidia. The whole thing just does not add up for me.

You can force it in the control panel still, developers such as Eidos won't care if you lose 5fps by doing this.

mmj_uk · 29 Sep 2009 at 23:02

As Mikehunt says it would be interesting to see how the game behaves on other GPU vendors such as Intel, NVidia don't really have reason to gimp their GPU's so if what you're saying about it detecting ATI hardware and downgrading then AA will should work for Intel?

Calabi · 30 Sep 2009 at 00:17

I wondered why I couldnt enable aa when I played the demo.

Theres supposedly been a response from nvidia.

NVIDIA statement on Batman AA
A representative of AMD recently claimed that NVIDIA interfered with anti-aliasing (AA) support for Batman: Arkham Asylum on AMD cards. They also claimed that NVIDIA’s The Way It’s Meant to be Played Program prevents AMD from working with developers for those games.
Both of these claims are NOT true. Batman is based on Unreal Engine 3, which does not natively support anti-aliasing. We worked closely with Eidos to add AA and QA the feature on GeForce. Nothing prevented AMD from doing the same thing.
Games in The Way It’s Meant to be Played are not exclusive to NVIDIA. AMD can also contact developers and work with them.
We are proud of the work we do in The Way It’s Meant to be Played. We work hard to deliver kickass, game-changing features in PC games like PhysX, AA, and 3D Vision for games like Batman. If AMD wants to deliver innovation for PC games then we encourage them to roll up their sleeves and do the same.

NVIDIA Developer Relations