ISIS and Islamic militants - discussion

arknor said:
How many British muslims have fled to ISIS? probably a few hundred at the most but for argument sake lets say it's a ridiculous number like 10k muslins


seems safe to suggest a very minute minority of UK Muslims support or join ISIS

Aren't they nearly always teenagers as well?
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It's possible to support the Islamic State without actually travelling to Syria e.g. jihadi charity Caged.

The three women who have taken all those kids to Syria were in their thirties. Without any stats to hand I'd suggest most jihadis were in their twenties or thirties.
 
cyber69 said:
I drive past a Sikh temple occasionally in Leamington spa and I look at it in wonder as it's a truly amazing looking building.

http://www.gurdwara-leamingtonandwarwick.com/

And all we can do for our local churches is to keep patching them up as thieves keep stripping the lead off the roof.
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That's nice but what's it got to do with my proposal to ban minarets?
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-33144491

Update on the Bradford family who have gone missing.

He said the fathers were "concerned that their children's lives are in danger".

"[They] are distraught, they feel helpless and they don't know what to do. They want the children out of harm's way."
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I'll state up front that I don't believe them - I think they're in on this and they'll end up going to Syria as well soon.
 
scorza said:
1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret
2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population
3. Ban on face coverings in public
4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK
5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places.
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Brilliant post, agree with each and every one of them, maybe then they'll realise this country is not for their taking
 
scorza said:
Apologies for not responding to this sooner - only just seen it today. On the basis that you can't fight the idea of Islamic supremacy with soldiers and policemen, I've developed a five point plan which represents a different idea; namely that Islam is not above the law in the UK.

1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret
2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population
3. Ban on face coverings in public
4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK
5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places.

I don't claim that this is a panacea to the disease of Islamic extremism - ultimately it's going to be down to local communities to root out the cancer themselves. After all, it's their kids that are blowing themselves up in Syria and they don't want that do they?
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I see a problem with that

"1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret"
no churches with spires or maybe crosses either then?

"2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population" separation will make it easier for them to unite their ideals....... surely forcing them to be integrated with the normal community would be better.

"3. Ban on face coverings in public"
Why? What does it actually do? How many suicide bombers have been dressed as women in burkhas? Forcing them to reveal their faces won't alter a damned thing about them or their life choices.

"4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK"
If what they have done is outside the parameters of UK Law they should be dealt with accordingly anyway.

"5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places." We going to start demolishing churches where paedophiles have been active? They've victimised and ****ed up our children for years.



Forcing a religion underground didn't work when the Romans and Jews persecuted Christianity

It didn't work when the Catholics persecuted Protestants or vice versa

Why the **** would anyone think it would work now?


I can't believe after hundreds of years of cleaning up the mess religion makes we still try to tackle it with the same knee jerk poorly thought out reactions.

As for telling them it's not their country that's half the problem. For many of them it is their country British Born citizens we need to embrace the good Muslims and isolate the bad ones. Not alienate all of them. The only people who can fix this is the Muslims. They need to be supported in ridding this from their faith not treated as lesser beings for what they believe.

Essentially we need to reward support and grow Muslim communities that push radicalism out report it to the police etc.
 
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TwsT said:
I see a problem with that
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Only because you're looking for problems.

"1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret"
no churches with spires or maybe crosses either then? Why?

"2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population" separation will make it easier for them to unite their ideals....... surely forcing them to be integrated with the normal community would be better. Better for whom? There are credible reports that radical Muslim prison gangs are getting more an more powerful and are converting many non-Muslim inmates by fair means and foul. Just what society needs eh? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8558590.stm

"3. Ban on face coverings in public"
Why? What does it actually do? How many suicide bombers have been dressed as women in burkhas? Forcing them to reveal their faces won't alter a damned thing about them or their life choices. It creates a barrier between them and us. It'll help identification of people and it's also just good manners to show your face when you talk to someone. Note that this does not ban the headscarf like in France, and it would also apply to wearing balaclavas - which I believe the police wouldn't tolerate anyway.

"4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK"
If what they have done is outside the parameters of UK Law they should be dealt with accordingly anyway. You realise I'm not talking about a criminal court here right?

"5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places." We going to start demolishing churches where paedophiles have been active? They've victimised and ****ed up our children for years.The fact is that the problem of paedophiles in positions of authority is being dealt with, the problem of radicalisation of British Muslims isn't.


TwsT said:
Forcing a religion underground didn't work when the Romans and Jews persecuted Christianity

It didn't work when the Catholics persecuted Protestants or vice versa

Why the **** would anyone think it would work now?
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None of my proposals would be anything like forcing Islam underground.
 
scorza said:
Apologies for not responding to this sooner - only just seen it today. On the basis that you can't fight the idea of Islamic supremacy with soldiers and policemen, I've developed a five point plan which represents a different idea; namely that Islam is not above the law in the UK.

1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret
2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population
3. Ban on face coverings in public
4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK
5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places.

I don't claim that this is a panacea to the disease of Islamic extremism - ultimately it's going to be down to local communities to root out the cancer themselves. After all, it's their kids that are blowing themselves up in Syria and they don't want that do they?
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So you are going to a target a group of people that are already hostile to the west by attacking symbols of their religion.

Genius.
 
OldCoals said:
So you are going to a target a group of people that are already hostile to the west by attacking symbols of their religion.

Genius.
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Well if they're already hostile to the west, which they are, then you can't make them any more hostile can you? One things for sure, you won't make them less hostile by pandering to them.
 
scorza said:
Well if they're already hostile to the west, which they are, then you can't make them any more hostile can you?
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Of course you can :confused:

One things for sure, you won't make them less hostile by pandering to them.
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It's not about pandering to them, it's about defeating the fringe ideology through encompassing and dialogue with the moderate middle.

Force didn't finally defeat terrorism from the IRA and the N.I troubles, diplomacy did.
 
Freakbro said:
Of course you can :confused:



It's not about pandering to them, it's about defeating the fringe ideology through encompassing and dialogue with the moderate middle.

Force didn't finally defeat terrorism from the IRA and the N.I troubles, diplomacy did.
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They hate us so much that they think that their own lives are worth giving up if it means more kuffir are killed - they can't possibly hate us anymore than that.

Radical Islam is just another form of fascism - they think they're better than everyone else in society, the only way to combat fascism is to confront it, challenge it and above all don't try to appease them (remember Neville Chamerblain?). 14 years of dialogue with the 'moderate middle' has achieved the square root of sod all, you need to get out there and tackle the extremists head on. My proposals are centered on replacing the idea that Islam is the only way and it must be followed with a different idea, namely that in Britain you are free to practice whatever religion you like but you must also abide by and follow British rules and customs.
 
scorza said:
Only because you're looking for problems.

"1. No planning permission to be granted for any Mosque with a minaret"
no churches with spires or maybe crosses either then? Why?

"2. Separate radical Muslim inmates at Her Majesty's Prisons from the rest of the prison population" separation will make it easier for them to unite their ideals....... surely forcing them to be integrated with the normal community would be better. Better for whom? There are credible reports that radical Muslim prison gangs are getting more an more powerful and are converting many non-Muslim inmates by fair means and foul. Just what society needs eh? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8558590.stm

"3. Ban on face coverings in public"
Why? What does it actually do? How many suicide bombers have been dressed as women in burkhas? Forcing them to reveal their faces won't alter a damned thing about them or their life choices. It creates a barrier between them and us. It'll help identification of people and it's also just good manners to show your face when you talk to someone. Note that this does not ban the headscarf like in France, and it would also apply to wearing balaclavas - which I believe the police wouldn't tolerate anyway.

"4. New criminal offence of operating a Sharia law court in the UK"
If what they have done is outside the parameters of UK Law they should be dealt with accordingly anyway. You realise I'm not talking about a criminal court here right?

"5. Compulsory purchase and demolish Mosques where hate preachers have been allowed to operate and turn them into public places." We going to start demolishing churches where paedophiles have been active? They've victimised and ****ed up our children for years.The fact is that the problem of paedophiles in positions of authority is being dealt with, the problem of radicalisation of British Muslims isn't.




None of my proposals would be anything like forcing Islam underground.
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1.

Why. Indeed Why would removing a minaret have a positive or negative impact on the radicalisation of British Muslims. Seems like a pointless restriction designed to do nothing but remind them "who's in charge" Lets remember we're a democratic nation and if prop rep comes in then these Muslims can vote for Muslim parties and they can have a say in our government because they got a percentage of the vote and thus should be represented.

2.
Prison itself doesn't work Muslim gangs gain Muslims criminal gangs gain new contacts. when 58% of prisoners on short sentences re offend within a year of leaving jail. Criminal rehabilitation needs addressing in general.

3. Fair enough I disagree it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether someone's face is covered. The security forces don't need burkhas removing they have plenty of methods for identifying and tracking people. I also as a side note wish some people would wear more clothes.

4. Sharia law itself has no power if they run a court and operate in the UK and what they do defies British law it should be dealt with. We don't need new laws we just need to use the ones we have and stop pussy footing around it. Driving around shouting ****/whore and wishing them death at women showing their legs should be treated as a hate crime.


5.
We allowed the church to "deal with it" and they didn't. We need the Muslim community on our side we need them to feel safe and protected if they report these extremists. The risk with your plans is that they will be punished for the actions of the few so rather than reveal the few they will conceal it to protect themselves from punitive measures.
 
TwsT said:
4. Sharia law itself has no power if they run a court and operate in the UK and what they do defies British law it should be dealt with.
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Not entirely accurate. Sharia law can be used as a court of arbitration in civil disputes. It should be only if both parties agree, but in a lot of cases pressure is applied within the community to solve it via a Sharia court. Sharia is inherently sexist and fundamentally incompatible with liberal values. I am not sure it is something we should be allowing.
 
RDM said:
Not entirely accurate. Sharia law can be used as a court of arbitration in civil disputes. It should be only if both parties agree, but in a lot of cases pressure is applied within the community to solve it via a Sharia court. Sharia is inherently sexist and fundamentally incompatible with liberal values. I am not sure it is something we should be allowing.
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Wouldn't that be singling out Islam for special treatment again though, since we have other religious courts using the Arbitration Act to govern in the same way over civil matters, eg The Catholic National Tribunal and the Jewish Beth Din.
 
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