ISIS and Islamic militants - discussion

AdladUK said:
Always makes me laugh how everyone instantly jumps to "destroy ISIS" or "wipe them all out", without really considering how and why these groups formed in the first place.

I'm not in any way shape or form justifying such barbaric actions or people, however a large part of the blame lies with the West (specifically America and Britain) for getting involved in these areas of the World to begin with. And by getting involved I mean causing death and destruction.

Do you really think a 10 year war with hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths has no consequence? People never learn. It's like a tragic broken record, history just repeating itself over and over
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Indeed

You only have to look at what happened to the Iraqi people, and what they were promised would happen after sadam was toppled.

They had their hopes built up, promises made by people who knew what iraq needed, before the whitehouse then sent in civil servants who went back on all of that, made the entire iraqi army redundant and promised them a redundancy payout, then gave them nothing.

Then they went back on all their promises, and installed a civil servant as the interim leader whose only interest was finding somebody most sympathetic to the US to install as leader, and had little interest in the iraqis deciding for themselves who should be leader.

That gave them a leader who decided to enact his revenge for the years of punishment under Sadam Hussein, by in turn mis treating the minority sunnis who had enjoyed so much power under sadam. Armed militia were roaming the street and performing summary executions on those accused of supporting Sadam. The new leadership were no better, just sympathetic to the west which was all that white house cared about.

Then we all pulled out and "left them to it"

and this is what happens. Where ISIS primarily consists of the minority sunni muslims who previously enjoyed wealth prosperity and preferrential treatment under sadam, and are now getting **** on and want revenge, and want to continue the campaign to wipe out the kurds from Norther Iraq that Sadam had when he used chemical weapons on them.
 
badcompany said:
I am personally sick off the excuses and cowardice from the so called moderate Muslim community (if that even exists)
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How are they supposed to report someone when they don't know who the extremists are?

Do you know what you neighbours are up to, where they work, where to go when abroad?

Most people wouldn't even know if their partner was cheating on them, someone they share a bed with. How are muslims supposed to know what some stranger living across the road from them is watching on the internet?
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Why would you bother to differentiate now when there was no such differentiation before? It couldn't possibly be because it suits you, could it?
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Because at some point it becomes absurd.

That chap is also human. Does he represent all humans? Does he represent all life-forms on this planet? Clearly both are absurd.

Does he represent IS? Yup.
Does he represent extremist muslims? Yes, I think so.
Does he represent all muslims? Clearly not.
Does he represent those who read the Koran literally? I'm not qualified to say but some have suggested a literal reading would support their actions.

So the Koran is a book you have to interpret in a non-literal way unless you want to end up a fanatic. It's would be terribly easy to use such a book to create fanatics. You'd just have to read it and adhere to it completely, without any kind of interpretation to soften it.

A literal reading of the Bible is quite different. The Old Testament would have you stoning people for various crimes - if you were Jewish - but the New Testament makes it extremely clear that the Old Testament laws no longer apply.

A literal reading of the Bible would be confusing as anything in certain places, but it wouldn't be at all easy to create a murderous fanatic.

I think it should be plain to see that Islam has a problem. A problem that creates fanatics rather easily.
 
FoxEye said:
Because at some point it becomes absurd.

That chap is also human. Does he represent all humans? Does he represent all life-forms on this planet? Clearly both are absurd.

Does he represent IS? Yup.
Does he represent extremist muslims? Yes, I think so.
Does he represent all muslims? Clearly not.
Does he represent those who read the Koran literally? I'm not qualified to say but some have suggested a literal reading would support their actions.

So the Koran is a book you have to interpret in a non-literal way unless you want to end up a fanatic. It's would be terribly easy to use such a book to create fanatics. You'd just have to read it and adhere to it completely, without any kind of interpretation to soften it.

A literal reading of the Bible is quite different. The Old Testament would have you stoning people for various crimes - if you were Jewish - but the New Testament makes it extremely clear that the Old Testament laws no longer apply.

A literal reading of the Bible would be confusing as anything in certain places, but it wouldn't be at all easy to create a murderous fanatic.

I think it should be plain to see that Islam has a problem. A problem that creates fanatics rather easily.
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As absurd as thinking he and IS represents all of Islam? Yup.

e: Do you seriously not think there would be other means of recruitment even if Islam was not around? You are playing a fools game to think religion - an inanimate ideology ffs - has anything to blame about this. It is the preachers (read: particular people) that are the problem, not the material they preach.
 
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Dis86 said:
How do you know nobody from the Muslim world asked him to?

I'll state again. He committed murder in the name of Islam.
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How do you the guy who talked him in to it and handed the knife wasn't another Brit.

I haven't see the video but the press say he spoke in English. I'd guess he probably speaks little to no Arabic and was most likely recruited and 'trained' by another Brit.
 
Mujja said:
How do you the guy who talked him in to it and handed the knife wasn't another Brit.

I haven't see the video but the press say he spoke in English. I'd guess he probably speaks little to no Arabic and was most likely recruited and 'trained' by another Brit.
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I'm not saying he wasn't recruited by another brit. What I'm saying though that you've glossed over every time is that he murdered, nay, executed an innocent man in a horrendous and brutal fashion in the name of Islam.
 
Mujja said:
How are they supposed to report someone when they don't know who the extremists are?

Do you know what you neighbours are up to, where they work, where to go when abroad?

Most people wouldn't even know if their partner was cheating on them, someone they share a bed with. How are muslims supposed to know what some stranger living across the road from them is watching on the internet?
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Talking about sons, daughters etc..
 
Dj_Jestar said:
As absurd as thinking he and IS represents all of Islam? Yup.

e: Do you seriously not think there would be other means of recruitment even if Islam was not around? You are playing a fools game to think religion - an inanimate ideology ffs - has anything to blame about this. It is the preachers (read: particular people) that are the problem, not the material they preach.
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They use religion yes but it always works when trying to coerce weak people to think in certain ways always has thats why organised religion came about in the first place.


There are few examples or people being brainwashed into killing etc without religion being involved but most examples can be broken back to religion sadly.
 
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Mujja said:
Since when have family members been prosecuted because of the actions of their son/brother.

Should we lock your parents away because they didn't monitor the amount of porn you were downloading and distributing?

And if the parents have other dependents who takes care of them, do we split up the families and house them in care homes?

Who would want to foster a muslim child? I mean they are only going to grow up and become another terrorist, at which you, the foster parent, will be locked up.
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You didnt really think very much before replying did you.

Try again.
 
badcompany said:
Sky news reporting US to take action within Syria against Islamic state
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Could turn in to another long conflict with no end. However, something has to be done.

It would be good if more Middle East countries got involved. Didn't the US sell the Saudis jets during the first gulf war. The Saudi's started this mess, they should help put an end to it.
 
Mujja said:
He's as much British as he is Muslim.

No one from Britain asked him to carry out the act, just as no one from the Muslim world asked him to.
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there are whole groups of people from the Muslim world asking people to do exactly that...

for each of the several hundred Brits over there there are likely several more who sympathise with them, would consider a similar move themselves and/or are close to considering.

The authorities can act in the short term to fight the symptoms, take on IS militarily/support the Kurds/Iraqi govt, try to arrest/stop/keep tabs on extremists over here. However the underlying, long term problem is an ideological one and something the Islamic community still needs to do more to stamp out, they've still got a very real problem with extremism and its not going away overnight.
 
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