Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[zoomee]

Can't play that 'rockets in schools' line now - whats israel going to do?

BBC news at 10, whilst interviewing Hamas, Hamas also said the same, there is no evidence of rockets in schools - I'm sure if there was there would be pictures all over the place by now. Israel's propaganda team go all out to ensure Hamas are as vilified as possible in the media.

 

[Westyfield2]

there is no evidence of rockets in schools

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

UNRWA Strongly Condemns Placement of Rockets in School
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza
East Jerusalem

Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.

UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures.

Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.​

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One of Its Schools
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza
Gaza

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.

UNRWA strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law.

The Agency immediately informed the relevant parties and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA will launch a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.

UNRWA has reinforced and continues to implement its robust procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and regular inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes.

Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.

Background Information
UNRWA is a United Nations agency established by the General Assembly in 1949 and is mandated to provide assistance and protection to a population of some 5 million registered Palestine refugees. Its mission is to help Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank and the Gaza Strip to achieve their full potential in human development, pending a just solution to their plight. UNRWA’s services encompass education, health care, relief and social services, camp infrastructure and improvement, and microfinance.

Financial support to UNRWA has not kept pace with an increased demand for services caused by growing numbers of registered refugees, expanding need, and deepening poverty. As a result, the Agency's General Fund (GF), supporting UNRWA’s core activities and 97 per cent reliant on voluntary contributions, has begun each year with a large projected deficit. Currently the deficit stands at US$ 69 million.

​

 

[Castiel]

However Westyfield, that doesn't address what Zoomee said in the context of the Lauren Booth story.

 

[RDM]

However Westyfield, that doesn't address what Zoomee said in the context of the Lauren Booth story.

The original story is from the Palestinian Telegraph, not exactly a reputable source if the wiki link is to be believed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palestine_Telegraph

Whilst possible so far the story seems to lack any real evidence or even decent providence.

 

[Castiel]

The original story is from the Palestinian Telegraph, not exactly a reputable source if the wiki link is to be believed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palestine_Telegraph

Whilst possible so far the story seems to lack any real evidence or even decent providence.

True to form there RDM .

The wiki link doesn't imply that the publication isn't reputable, it does illustrate that it is an aggregator of independent and freelance contributors...it is Lauren Booth who made the claim from what I can see, so what the Palestinian Telegraph other contributors may or may not have said or reported over the years is neither here nor there. Perhaps you would like to show us why Lauren Booth should be treated with distain i(other than the fact she is Muslim or a Palestinian rights activist, which is enough for many people it would appear) instead, that would be more relevant.

Do you at least have the Palestinian Telegraph story to back up the claim?..never mind I have found it, and far from being disreputable, the editor makes it clear that the editor was unable to verify the story and is awaiting further evidence:

Palestine Telegraph is not able to verify the information via a third party, but our source promised to provide a videotaped material to support his account.

http://paltelegraph.com/exclusive-israeli-spies-in-gaza-placed-rockets-in-unrwa-schools/

So we shall have to wait and see.

 

[Freefaller]

I wonder if the western press will ever have the guts of this woman:

Good for her - glad she was able to get that aired.

 

[Castiel]

I wonder if the western press will ever have the guts of this woman:

Good for her - glad she was able to get that aired.

Will they ever have the cohones to air that....it needs to be.

 

[Devlish]

I wonder if the western press will ever have the guts of this woman:

Good for her - glad she was able to get that aired.

Its RT and its anti-american/Israeli. Of course they're going to air it.

 

[boxman2000]

Good for her - glad she was able to get that aired.

I wonder how many of the poor Palestinian people that have been injured or killed were forced to stay in their homes even after the Israeli warnings?

Read an interesting quote on twitter recently: "Israel use weapons to defend the people; Hamas use people to defend their weapons."

I'm not saying Israel haven't gone to the extreme on this, neither am I justifying the death of innocent civilians but putting this into some perspective, what sort of military response would be given if France were firing rockets at the UK?

Civilian casualties are inevitable, particularly when on side uses schools etc to store weapons. These deaths are not solely Israel's fault, yes they pulled the trigger (and for that they need to take responsibility), but Hamas have put some of these people in the cross-hairs and they most certainly have to take a portion of the blame.

 

[Castiel]

I'm not saying Israel haven't gone to the extreme on this, neither am I justifying the death of innocent civilians but putting this into some perspective, what sort of military response would be given if France were firing rockets at the UK?

France is a sovereign state...Hamas is not. A more apt analogy would be if a French based terrorist fired rockets at the UK, would we bomb French Civilian buildings, schools and hospitals in Paris?

 

[Freefaller]

Its RT and its anti-american/Israeli. Of course they're going to air it.

So you accept that there is a link between America and Israel then?

That's the problem, the link is oppressive to the middle east.

 

[drunkenmaster]

It's not just over in the Middle East though.

Yesterday in Austria a football game had to be stopped when people ran onto the pitch and started attacking Israeli football players. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-protesters-storm-pitch-ATTACK-players.html

Go back to last week and in Paris, Jews were being attacked. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-dark-days-1938-chilling-dispatch-Paris.html

You realise this hasn't happened forever, it's happening because Israel is acting like Germany of old now. People are fed up with them the world over now and their behaviour. Israel if they lived in peace and stopped pushing forwards(or like many of their leaders at the time said refused the deal for Israel because the idea of doing what was done to them by the Nazi's to the Palestinians made them sick), then that is one thing. Their continual aggression is angering everyone and there is retaliation due to this.


Israel oppresses, wages war and murders civilians for 60+ years.... some people react against the Israeli football team 60+ years later.... it's because people inherently hate jews, not because Israel is acting like a complete ****.


There is no excuse for waging an indiscriminate war against your neighbours. A jewish guy being beaten up half way around the world isn't indicative that the entire world is out to get you. Even if half the world was out to get you, it's not an excuse to kill your neighbours.

The current worldwide backlash against Israel is entirely down to the way Israel has behaved for so long. THEIR actions are making THEM(not jewish people) hated... but they'll use that like everything else as an excuse.

 

[ElliorR]

Or when the IRA were bombing the UK did we fire missile after missile at civilian targets in Ireland?

*Yes I know British soldiers killed innocent people*

 

[boxman2000]

France is a sovereign state...Hamas is not. A more apt analogy would be if a French based terrorist fired rockets at the UK, would we bomb French Civilian buildings, schools and hospitals in Paris?

Fair point.

To answer your question? I would imagine in your scenario we would if that was where the terrorists were based or storing weapons, most likely ground troops rather than aerial bombing. I also would expect the French authorities to be doing something as well in order to maintain peace.

For me, the latter point is key in this whole situation. Any bear will only put up with only so much poking...

 

[drunkenmaster]

I wonder how many of the poor Palestinian people that have been injured or killed were forced to stay in their homes even after the Israeli warnings?

Read an interesting quote on twitter recently: "Israel use weapons to defend the people; Hamas use people to defend their weapons."

I'm not saying Israel haven't gone to the extreme on this, neither am I justifying the death of innocent civilians but putting this into some perspective, what sort of military response would be given if France were firing rockets at the UK?

Civilian casualties are inevitable, particularly when on side uses schools etc to store weapons. These deaths are not solely Israel's fault, yes they pulled the trigger (and for that they need to take responsibility), but Hamas have put some of these people in the cross-hairs and they most certainly have to take a portion of the blame.

If France was waging war on England and England had done nothing, we would **** them up. If we had invaded France, occupied their territories and kept them in essentially prisons and they fired rockets at us, I'd call it a resistance. The main thing being, we would be the aggressive force that is DAILY attacking them in various ways.

This is where people need to realise the difference, Hamas is not randomly attacking a country that they aren't involved with then Israel responding. Israel during the "quiet" periods are still pushing Palestinians back, destroying their homes, taking more land, killing the odd Palestinian here and there, arresting people who resist having their homes taken away from them illegally.

We're talking about say Paris being occupied during the war and the natives being treated like crap, with the odd one arrested and tortured to death, people being thrown out of their houses, their possessions being taken.

The Germans may not have been actively blowing up Paris while they occupied it, but it wasn't peaceful occupation, it wasn't friendly. They were still abusing and hurting many people on a daily basis and there was a resistance for a reason.

It's like someone who kicks a cat all day long, then after 6 months gets angry when the cat attacks them in retaliation and decides to go out and kill all cats in revenge.

We like to pretend it's not resistance because it's been going on for 60 years, but it is. Had Germany gotten across the channel and managed to take control of most of England, we'd have resisted for 60+ years as well.

 

[Castiel]

Fair point.

To answer your question? I would imagine in your scenario we would if that was where the terrorists were based or storing weapons, most likely ground troops rather than aerial bombing. I also would expect the French authorities to be doing something as well in order to maintain peace.

For me, the latter point is key in this whole situation.

I doubt we would do anything other than support French Authorities in dealing with terrorism, given that the French have a significant and effective law enforcement system...something that Gaza doesn't have due to the nature of the blockade and the constant destruction of its infrastructure. Even so, when militant groups have broken Hamas agreed ceasefires they have been arrested and detained on numerous occasions.

If we use Northern Ireland in your analogy, where explosive and weapons were kept in civilian buildings, we still did not bomb or attack civilian populations in order to combat it. We used covert intelligence and a civilian police force, supported by a military structure to root out, confiscate and destroy the weapons themselves and arrest and prosecute those proven to be responsible. This is what progressive societies do...Israel does none of these things. It relies upon collective punishment to justify its own offensives which are, in part, a result of its own policies and actions against the Palestinian civilian populations. Like Drunkenmaster says, Hamas are effectively a resistance group, terrorist or not, they are resisting what they see as an occupation of their people's land and an aggressive policy of annexation by Israel.

 

[boxman2000]

Like Drunkenmaster says, Hamas are effectively a resistance group, terrorist or not, they are resisting what they see as an occupation of their people's land and an aggressive policy of annexation by Israel.

I'm not generally disagreeing with either of your posts but ultimately both parties believe the land to be theirs, both from religious grounds. Who is right, who is wrong? (Rhetorical question).

The argument works both ways, depending on your standpoint. As I said earlier, I'm not defending the killing of innocent civilians but the situation is simply not as black and white as people make out - if it was the case then we wouldn't still be seeing the same thing happening again and again for 56 years with all the international interventions etc.

 

[Castiel]

I'm not generally disagreeing with either of your posts but ultimately both parties believe the land to be theirs, both from religious grounds. Who is right, who is wrong? (Rhetorical question).

The Palestinians do not believe the land to be theirs based on religious grounds, they believe it to be theirs by right of ownership. Just like you and I believe our homes are ours under similar justification.

The argument works both ways

It doesn't, as the Palestinians are not occupying Israeli lands, unless of course you believe that the entire region was given to the Chosen Jewish Hebrew People by God several millennia ago.

 

[Devlish]

It's like someone who kicks a cat all day long, then after 6 months gets angry when the cat attacks them in retaliation and decides to go out and kill all cats in revenge.

We like to pretend it's not resistance because it's been going on for 60 years, but it is. Had Germany gotten across the channel and managed to take control of most of England, we'd have resisted for 60+ years as well.

Whilst not wanting to continue this absolutely awful analogy, I have to ask - what??? Anyone who needs to reduce the argument to this level to understand it, is never going to understand the reality quite frankly.

Lets look at trying to use the cat story to describe what actually happened. There used to be a lot of cats, much bigger than the guy, lets call them sabre tooth tigers. And the guy was not really a guy, he was a little guy who was not free and was fighting another much bigger guy who had control of him. So little guy eventually scares away big guy and then all the sabre tooth tigers decide to eat him and they all jump him at the same time. Somehow he fights off all the sabre tooth tigers, against all odds. Then for the next sixty years the tigers continually try to eat him... and oh forget it. Terrible analogy. Hamas as a pussy cat? Really?

And Nazi Germany? I can guarantee Nazi Germany wouldn't have had this problem. What they would have done is literally levelled Gaza with artillery, used the Gazans to build some nice shiny autobahn through the middle, then shot them in the desert. Resistance? None of this protesters in the streets nonsense would have happened under the Nazis.

 

[Craterloads]

Whilst not wanting to continue this absolutely awful analogy, I have to ask - what??? Anyone who needs to reduce the argument to this level to understand it, is never going to understand the reality quite frankly.

Lets look at trying to use the cat story to describe what actually happened. There used to be a lot of cats, much bigger than the guy, lets call them sabre tooth tigers. And the guy was not really a guy, he was a little guy who was not free and was fighting another much bigger guy who had control of him. So little guy eventually scares away big guy and then all the sabre tooth tigers decide to eat him and they all jump him at the same time. Somehow he fights off all the sabre tooth tigers, against all odds. Then for the next sixty years the tigers continually try to eat him... and oh forget it. Terrible analogy. Hamas as a pussy cat? Really?

And Nazi Germany? I can guarantee Nazi Germany wouldn't have had this problem. What they would have done is literally levelled Gaza with artillery, used the Gazans to build some nice shiny autobahn through the middle, then shot them in the desert. Resistance? None of this protesters in the streets nonsense would have happened under the Nazis.

Nomination for worst post in thread?