Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

Devlish · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:33

Castiel said:
It doesn't, as the Palestinians are not occupying Israeli lands, unless of course you believe that the entire region was given to the Chosen Jewish Hebrew People by God several millennia ago.

Why only several millenia?

shine · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:33

Devlish said:
And Nazi Germany? I can guarantee Nazi Germany wouldn't have had this problem. What they would have done is literally levelled Gaza with artillery, used the Gazans to build some nice shiny autobahn through the middle, then shot them in the desert. Resistance? None of this protesters in the streets nonsense would have happened under the Nazis.

Really? You need to take look back in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Does this sound familiar?

Castiel · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:38

Devlish said:
Why only several millenia?

Because traditional Jewish belief and Biblical Historical Interpretation puts the exodus from anywhere between around the 2nd Millennium BCE and the 4th Century BCE. So several is a valid expression of such an indeterminable period.

It does not matter whether it was 10 thousand years ago, or yesterday, unless you actually believe God gave them the region and they are therefore justified in removing the indigenous population.

Devlish · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:53

shine said:
Really? You need to take look back in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Does this sound familiar?

I'm not having this discussion again because no, it really doesnt. You need to read that article and call me when the Israelis round up the entire population of the Gaza strip and shoot/gas them.

13,000 Jews were killed in the ghetto during the uprising (some 6,000 among them were burnt alive or died from smoke inhalation). Of the remaining 50,000 residents, most were captured and shipped to concentration and extermination camps, in particular to Treblinka.

Castiel · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:56

Devlish said:
I'm not having this discussion again because no, it really doesnt. You need to read that article and call me when the Israelis round up the entire population of the Gaza strip and shoot/gas them.

It did not begin that way however, and the similarities are clear. It is a classic case of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

Devlish · 25 Jul 2014 at 12:58

Castiel said:
Because traditional Jewish belief and Biblical Historical Interpretation puts the exodus from anywhere between around the 2nd Millennium BCE and the 4th Century BCE. So several is a valid expression of such an indeterminable period.

It does not matter whether it was 10 thousand years ago, or yesterday, unless you actually believe God gave them the region and they are therefore justified in removing the indigenous population.

Whilst i'm not a supporter of settlements and the belligerent attitude of their establishment, I don't believe they have ever used historical right as an argument. Rather they've used an interpretation of aritciles under the british mandate, which never covered land captured by the Israeli's after. Of course the people settling in them do so on religious grounds, but they're almost as cheesecake as Hamas.

Devlish · 25 Jul 2014 at 13:01

Castiel said:
It did not begin that way however, and the similarities are clear. It is a classic case of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

See I don't buy this either. Only a minority of the Israeli's who settled there had any direct experience of the concentration camps. Rather, their attitude was shaped by the open hostility of the arab nations around them from the outset and for decades afterwards. I think their mindset owes a lot more to the Arab-Israeli conflict than it does to Nazi Germanys final solution.

Castiel · 25 Jul 2014 at 13:09

Devlish said:
Whilst i'm not a supporter of settlements and the belligerent attitude of their establishment, I don't believe they have ever used historical right as an argument. Rather they've used an interpretation of aritciles under the british mandate, which never covered land captured by the Israeli's after. Of course the people settling in them do so on religious grounds, but they're almost as cheesecake as Hamas.

As the ruling party in Israel, Likud, is essentially a Revisionist Zionist one with strong links to the Eretz Yisreal ideology and whose basic raison d'être was to recreate and maintain the territorial integrity of the historical land of Israel and establish a Jewish state with a Jewish majority on both sides of the River Jordan, only since 1967 has the claim to Jordan been dropped....I would reconsider that view if I were you.

Castiel · 25 Jul 2014 at 13:11

Devlish said:
See I don't buy this either. Only a minority of the Israeli's who settled there had any direct experience of the concentration camps. Rather, their attitude was shaped by the open hostility of the arab nations around them from the outset and for decades afterwards. I think their mindset owes a lot more to the Arab-Israeli conflict than it does to Nazi Germanys final solution.

And this alters things how? And given the Israeli attitudes toward both the Holocaust and the historical oppression of Judaism I don't buy into your justification either...particularly given that it was Jewish Terrorist aggression that created the Jewish State of Israel from the outset.

86JR · 25 Jul 2014 at 13:47

Does this topic have anything to do with the anti-Jew persecution happening in France right now?

StriderX · 25 Jul 2014 at 13:52

86JR said:
Does this topic have anything to do with the anti-Jew persecution happening in France right now?

Where do you think a lot of middle eastern folk went?

It's not a big surprise... You never pick a fight with a population that grows much faster than your own, ever.

aardvark · 25 Jul 2014 at 15:03

Craterloads said:
Nomination for worst post in thread?

yep

Edward78 · 25 Jul 2014 at 16:29

Great vid. the media is so skrewed up over here we hear more truth from 2 shows on Comedy central, than the news.

AzZ · 25 Jul 2014 at 17:54

boxman2000 said:
I wonder how many of the poor Palestinian people that have been injured or killed were forced to stay in their homes even after the Israeli warnings?

Where should they have gone? Why should they live in fear in their own homes and why are their homes being targeted anyway?

Westyfield2 · 25 Jul 2014 at 18:54

Anyone else watch BBC News at 6pm tonight? They were filming in Gaza and two rockets are seen launching overhead... all the Palestinian civilians are then seen cheering and clapping.
Clever editing? As it doesn't quite fit the "Civilians are peaceful and disagree with the Hamas terrorists" line.

And similarly... when there's news of a Israeli solider being killed we see pictures of people celebrating in the streets in Gaza, but when there's news of Palestinians being killed we don't see Israelis out celebrating.
Again, is that real or clever editing by the media?

Castiel · 25 Jul 2014 at 18:59

Westyfield2 said:
Anyone else watch BBC News at 6pm tonight? They were filming in Gaza and two rockets are seen launching overhead... all the Palestinian civilians are then seen cheering and clapping.
Clever editing? As it doesn't quite fit the "Civilians are peaceful and disagree with the Hamas terrorists" line.

And similarly... when there's news of a Israeli solider being killed we see pictures of people celebrating in the streets in Gaza, but when there's news of Palestinians being killed we don't see Israelis out celebrating.
Again, is that real or clever editing by the media?

You didn't see the footage of Israelis watching the bombing of Gaza from a hilltop sitting around in deckchairs cheering every time a middle struck the city?

Danthus · 25 Jul 2014 at 18:59

You have only just realised this @ Westyfield, not Castiel.

Western media is weighted in favour of Israel.

Westyfield2 · 25 Jul 2014 at 19:07

Castiel said:
You didn't see the footage of Israelis watching the bombing of Gaza from a hilltop sitting around in deckchairs cheering every time a middle struck the city?

Nope, must have been looking away from the screen at that moment!

Craterloads · 25 Jul 2014 at 19:09

Westyfield2 said:
Anyone else watch BBC News at 6pm tonight? They were filming in Gaza and two rockets are seen launching overhead... all the Palestinian civilians are then seen cheering and clapping.
Clever editing? As it doesn't quite fit the "Civilians are peaceful and disagree with the Hamas terrorists" line.

And similarly... when there's news of a Israeli solider being killed we see pictures of people celebrating in the streets in Gaza, but when there's news of Palestinians being killed we don't see Israelis out celebrating.
Again, is that real or clever editing by the media?

You're too obvious, was this you're best attempt at disguising a bias as a impartial Israel are good / Palestine are bad?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn

I also remember not too long ago Israelis in fancy dress nation wide, celebrating the cold blooded execution by Israeli agents in Dubai of a Palestinian / Hamas leader.

Palestinians on the other hand, to be frank, for the injustices they have seen all bunkering in a UN shelter (still being bombed though) probably have reason to cheer when their side "scores a goal"

zoomee · 25 Jul 2014 at 19:36

Interesting article - no wonder David Cameron and his cronies are so Pro-Israeli:

Pro-Israel lobby group bankrolling Tories, film claims
50% of MPs in the shadow cabinet are Conservative Friends of Israel members, according to Channel 4's Dispatches

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/16/pro-israel-lobby-conservatives-channel4-dispatches

Corrupt politicians easily bribed. Saying that the Labour party is no better as the Labour Friends of Israel group can testify.....
http://press.labour.org.uk/post/89056233474/ed-miliband-speech-to-labour-friends-of-israel