Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[Abraxaz1]

No, you came up with an obscure and unlikely explanation to try and make them seem more innocent. How on earth could you know what "probably happened?" They thought kids playing football on the beach were child soldiers being trained, really?!

Stop making stuff up and your arguments might seem more credible, but at this moment in time you're desperately clutching at straws.

pfff.

OK calm down dear, relax someone on the internet has said something different to what you believe.

I gave possible reasons why not the ACTUAL reason, no person in there right mind goes into a situation like that and thinks "hey, I'm going to kill as many innocent people as possible" and to label an entire country with that mentality is kinda a indication of a person with a couple of issues themselves.
If the Israelis wanted to murder and commit an act of genocide on the Palestinians why do they allow so many to live within their borders?

 

[thep02]

pfff.

OK calm down dear, relax someone on the internet has said something different to what you believe.

I gave possible reasons why not the ACTUAL reason, no person in there right mind goes into a situation like that and thinks "hey, I'm going to kill as many innocent people as possible" and to label an entire country with that mentality is kinda a indication of a person with a couple of issues themselves.
If the Israelis wanted to murder and commit a act of genocide on the Palestinians why do they allow so many to live within their borders?

But the possible reason you gave was spurious and indeed self serving as the standpoint you have adopted is one of giving succour to the IDF while they go about their slaughter.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Oh look, Israel agree to a truce, then shell the Palestinians because supposedly a soldier was taken as Palestinians attacked...... Israeli's who were in Gaza attempting to destroy a "tunnel". Whatever they were doing, military action inside Gaza during a ceasefire is really not a ceasefire at all.

This is the problem, Israel agree to ceasefires, don't stop anything but the obvious shelling, so their are still ground forces doing things they shouldn't be doing(effectively an invasion force attacking on the ground) then when Palestinians rightly defend themselves/their territory, Israel accuse Palestinians of breaking the ceasefire and immediately start murdering civilians again.

It's the same thing as before the conflict(what Israel call conflict anyway) broke out, Israel provoke the living hell out of Palestinians(before this one it was rounding up 300 Hamas members Israel categorically KNEW were not involved in the kidnapping of three kids, nor did this happen anywhere near Gaza). They kill people, arrest people, then act the victim when Hamas respond and go ultra offensive as a way to "protect" themselves. How about not lying about the kidnapping, how about not mass arrests of people you just don't like, how about not torturing or killing any of those people, that would be a good way to protect yourselves, by not provoking the other side on purpose.

This is what it was, Israel purposefully lied about the kids, purposefully provoked Hamas because they wanted an excuse to give to the media when they blew Gaza up.

Provoke Hamas, get response, start conflict. Agree ceasefire, provoke Hamas, get response, break ceasefire. Israel have been the aggressors in every conflict, in every situation since it started.

 

[Johnnytoxic]

Hamas have brought it on themselves with them tunnels. They are unacceptable.

Palestine wrongly elected Hamas. I feel for the innocents mind.

 

[enkoda]

Israel is a nasty, vindictive, arrogant, bullying nation that lost any credibility & sympathy years ago.

For a race that has it's entire history stemming from the teachings of a simple man that wanted to do nothing but help his fellow man, regardless of colour, religion or race, and even forgiving the men that sentenced him to death*, I think the Israeli's need to step back at take a look at what they have become.

*Disclaimer: may or may not have been a real person, that's another debate entirely.

The Israeli army has some of the most advanced weaponry, elite military training and deep-cover intelligence/espionage personnel in the world. Every rocket and missile they fire is targetted with precision. To suggest they accidently kill innocent civialians is, for want of a better word, grotesque and an insult to their training.

Israel could, if it really wanted to, storm in and wipe out Hamas in an instant seeing as it cares so little about human rights, war crimes, etc.

 

[AGD]

pfff.

OK calm down dear, relax someone on the internet has said something different to what you believe.

I gave possible reasons why not the ACTUAL reason, no person in there right mind goes into a situation like that and thinks "hey, I'm going to kill as many innocent people as possible" and to label an entire country with that mentality is kinda a indication of a person with a couple of issues themselves.
If the Israelis wanted to murder and commit an act of genocide on the Palestinians why do they allow so many to live within their borders?

They tread a fine line between oppressing the Palestinians but not enough to remove their US support. Hence the leaked docs which show that they have deliberately kept Gaza on the brink of economic collapse over the last few years, and allowing in just enough food to prevent starvation.

 

[Abraxaz1]

But the possible reason you gave was spurious and indeed self serving as the standpoint you have adopted is one of giving succour to the IDF while they go about their slaughter.

I gave the counter opinion to the ones everyone else was giving, i.e. the JEWS want to murder the Muslims. If that comes across as self serving or pro Israeli then my bad, I was trying to give a counter argument as I do not believe anyone but the lowest forms of human live want to produce an act as vile as genocide.
I argued against the claims as why would a country invade another to wipe out its population when it has so many of said people living within its borders. In previous genocides of the world the dictator always attempt to 'Cleanse' his own country first before attempting it in others. This is not happening.

I honestly believe that the mortality rate is high due to the location and population density, but its a war and deaths happen. If I was to say it was terrible then I would be a hypocrite as the UK and US have committed acts more like genocide than Israel.

War isn't surgical, it's bloody and the innocent are always the first to die. Hamas have to use tactics that place civilians in harms way to survive if they didn't Israelies drone and airforce would wipe them out. Israel in return has to show strength in protecting it's people by taking out these positions, which leads to the casualties. Its a cluster **** with neither side in the right and neither side in the wrong. Israel are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

They tread a fine line between oppressing the Palestinians but not enough to remove their US support. Hence the leaked docs which show that they have deliberately kept Gaza on the brink of economic collapse over the last few years, and allowing in just enough food to prevent starvation.

Isreal only holds three borders, Egypt the other. Egypt is a Muslim country. Actually Egypt majority was slipping into a fundamentalist Muslim country but still they kept the border shut, why? are they not also responsible for Gaza's plight or is it all Israel's fault as they are the biggest target?

 

[elmarko]

As above a few posts, I'd be inclined to assume that the reason Israel has not strategically taken out Hamas already is specifically because there end goal is the assimilation of the remaining Palestinian land. Even with 'peace' without rocket attacks the blockade & the poor conditions will continue - co-existence isn't really on the cards for either faction any-more.

If you look back in history these conditions existed before Hamas did - so they actions of this organisation can't be used as an excuse for the disproportionate response, if anything Hamas is the response to the conditions.

For Israel the intention has always been to create a Jewish state & expand is borders until Palestine no longer exists - as a response to this the Palestinians now wish to remove Israel from the map. If I was a pessimist I'd guess that these rocket attacks are deliberately allowed - as it allows for (in the eyes of the international community) a response which further pushes people out of Palestine (the real goal).

Hamas are a dangerous & violent organisation, the issue is that by forcing this level of desperation onto a population is quite predictably going to breed this level of violence & resentment.

I would have course caveat this as being my subjective view based on everything I've seen - but it's the one which makes the most sense. As to what the solution is I have no idea, but we can't ignore the historical actions which led up-to this day either.

 

[Devlish]

pfff.

OK calm down dear, relax someone on the internet has said something different to what you believe.

I gave possible reasons why not the ACTUAL reason, no person in there right mind goes into a situation like that and thinks "hey, I'm going to kill as many innocent people as possible" and to label an entire country with that mentality is kinda a indication of a person with a couple of issues themselves.
If the Israelis wanted to murder and commit an act of genocide on the Palestinians why do they allow so many to live within their borders?

I wouldn't bother trying to argue reason, I don't think anyone in this thread is reasonable. Everyone has their Israel/Hamas are evil child murderers (delete as appropriate) and nothing said in GD constitutes a debate, just two groups of people shouting at each other.

 

[Devlish]

For Israel the intention has always been to create a Jewish state & expand is borders until Palestine no longer exists - as a response to this the Palestinians now wish to remove Israel from the map.

Thats where your argument breaks down, its the wrong way around. The Palestinians have historically wanted to remove Israel from the map since inception. The history of the PLO is one long quest to get another war started against Israel. I think if Israel wanted the Gaza strip and the West Bank, they would just march in - rather than marching out in 2005. The 'they want the land' argument is way too simplistic as successive world leaders have found out for decades.

 

[jaws104]

This is the problem, Israel agree to ceasefires, don't stop anything but the obvious shelling

They stopped fighting,the very definition of a ceasefire.

Oh look, Israel agree to a truce, then shell the Palestinians because supposedly a soldier was taken as Palestinians attacked...... Israeli's who were in Gaza attempting to destroy a "tunnel". Whatever they were doing, military action inside Gaza during a ceasefire is really not a ceasefire at all.

.

You put tunnel in inverted commas, do you not believe they exist? Israel made it clear they would continue to destroy the tunnels on both sides of the border during the ceasefire agreement.

No further airstrikes or tankfire followed until Hamas broke the ceasefire by firing rockets. Only Hamas to blame

 

[ICEx21]

Israel is a nasty, vindictive, arrogant, bullying nation that lost any credibility & sympathy years ago.

For a race that has it's entire history stemming from the teachings of a simple man that wanted to do nothing but help his fellow man, regardless of colour, religion or race, and even forgiving the men that sentenced him to death*, I think the Israeli's need to step back at take a look at what they have become.

*Disclaimer: may or may not have been a real person, that's another debate entirely.

The Israeli army has some of the most advanced weaponry, elite military training and deep-cover intelligence/espionage personnel in the world. Every rocket and missile they fire is targetted with precision. To suggest they accidently kill innocent civialians is, for want of a better word, grotesque and an insult to their training.

Israel could, if it really wanted to, storm in and wipe out Hamas in an instant seeing as it cares so little about human rights, war crimes, etc.

Tbh you sound like you're not even interested in who's right or who's wrong or how to even end this.
For whatever reason you've picked a side and as far as you're concerned you're side is completely innocent never instigates anything and is always the victim, while the opposition is completely evil and deserves to burn.

I also love how you bring race into this and just blame the Israeli people as a whole never mind any of those that actually opposed the actions of their military, by that logic all Palestinians are as guilty as Hamas.

 

[Amp34]

And? all wars are massacres, civilians get killed in wars its a unfortunate situation.

iraq
Vietnam
I could go on.

Why is all the blame on Israel they have the right to defend them selves, and no its not about the damage that is done its about the damage that could be done. A point everyone seems to be missing!
No defence system is a 100% accurate even the iron dome system.
Pretty sure If Hamas wasn't violent and braking every ceasefire Israel and Egypt (a majority Muslim country that people seem to forget, who are also blockading Gaza) would open there borders but then again its all about hating the strongest in this thread.

The real question is why don't we have a massive thread on the war crimes the ISIS is currently undertaking, with people calling for military force to be undertaken. They have wiped out kurds and for the first time there are no christians in northern iraq. Mass executions in both Iraq and Syria that make Gaza look like a car accident but yet no marching in the streets?

Is it because one group isn't a popular hate figure on the internet?

It's probably something to do with ISIS being a terrorist organization, recognised as such by every western nation and not supported by any. Israel on the other hand is a country that proclaims itself as western and says it adheres to western values. It's backed by many western nations and armed by several of those.

Add that to the fact that Israel started this current round of violence and there's a reasonable set of reasons for the uproar.

 

[elmarko]

Thats where your argument breaks down, its the wrong way around. The Palestinians have historically wanted to remove Israel from the map since inception. The history of the PLO is one long quest to get another war started against Israel. I think if Israel wanted the Gaza strip and the West Bank, they would just march in - rather than marching out in 2005. The 'they want the land' argument is way too simplistic as successive world leaders have found out for decades.

Are you suggesting that the long term actions of Israel have not been that of a nation intent on expansion at the expense of existing Palestinian land?.

I'm fairly certain you are wrong.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

They stopped fighting,the very definition of a ceasefire.

They did not stop fighting. Clearing out tunnels does not equal stopped fighting. It equals continued fighting on behalf of the Israelis.

 

[Lima]

Tbh you sound like you're not even interested in who's right or who's wrong or how to even end this.
For whatever reason you've picked a side and as far as you're concerned you're side is completely innocent never instigates anything and is always the victim, while the opposition is completely evil and deserves to burn.

I also love how you bring race into this and just blame the Israeli people as a whole never mind any of those that actually opposed the actions of their military, by that logic all Palestinians are as guilty as Hamas.

Pretty sure its been reported numerous times that most of the Israeli people are firmly in support of what their government are doing.

Also, I saw some link on my Facebook newsfeed the other night that linked to loads of Israeli teenage girls twitter accounts showing posts claiming they want all of palestine to be wiped out and children killed to stop the next generation......It was sickening to read.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Pretty sure its been reported numerous times that most of the Israeli people are firmly in support of what their government are doing.

Also, I saw some link on my Facebook newsfeed the other night that linked to loads of teenage girls twitter accounts showing posts claiming they want all of palestine to be wiped out and children killed to stop the next generation......It was sickening to read.

Yeah the amount of support from Israelis is insane. The children are very much indoctrinated (as with any nation) to be patriotic, but they seem to support the government no matter how violent their behaviour, and seem to lust for blood. I think that's because of Judaism, though.

 

[Janesy B]

Pretty sure its been reported numerous times that most of the Israeli people are firmly in support of what their government are doing.

Also, I saw some link on my Facebook newsfeed the other night that linked to loads of Israeli teenage girls twitter accounts showing posts claiming they want all of palestine to be wiped out and children killed to stop the next generation......It was sickening to read.

I'm sure if Palestinian teenage girls had access to twitter they'd probably say the same things.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I'm sure if Palestinian teenage girls had access to twitter they'd probably say the same things.

It's the love that they have of it that makes the whole thing really weird, though. They seem to absolutely relish the actions.

 

[Janesy B]

It's the love that they have of it that makes the whole thing really weird, though. They seem to absolutely relish the actions.

Possibly the daughters of immigrants that have nothing to do with the area but could move to Israel because they were Jewish and they see the Palestinians as a threat to their upper-middle class lifestyle.