Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

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ak22 said:
More lies form the IDF the solider that was apparently captured which broke the ceasefire, is now declared dead.. and it turns out he was not captured.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/israel-rejects-talks-gaza-attacks-end
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And the bombardment that followed killed 40 civilians.

Add to that it appears the Israelis destroyed four (4) tunnels. Four tunnels for 1600 Palestinians dead.

It now looks like they are pulling back voluntarily and withdrawing from any ceasefire agreements which means they won't be compelled to do anything about the conditions in Gaza or lift the blockade. The cynic in me things that's just the reason they are withdrawing...

What a senseless waste. I just hope someone ends up in docks in the Hague over this.
 
couple hundred more people dead, mostly civilians, in reaction to a kidnapping that never happened. Yup, sure, proportionate and justified. Ceasefire, in which Israel can continue attacking Palestinian land, people, bunkers, removing their defences...sure, everyone else on earth thinks ceasefire means Palestinians shouldn't fire a single bullet but Israel can run around in Palestinian land blowing up whatever they want....

Then Israel get all uppity when Palestinians defend themselves from continued Israel military action during the ceasefire.... then blame the Palestinians for breaking the ceasefire, and in retaliation target more civilian targets and murder another couple hundred people.

What really irks me is if anyone talks about the literally disgusting behaviour of Israel, people accuse you of being pro Palestinian, pro Hamas, pro "terrorist" groups.

Regardless of if you love or hate or don't care either way about Hamas, you can actually believe Israel to be 100% in the wrong in their actions, and not want every Jew dead, or even support Palestinian actions at all.

This is why I can't believe anyone at all supports Israel. You can hate Palestinians... and still find Israel's actions despicable. How can anyone of a right mind support what Israel is doing, I honestly can't understand these pathetic justifications for attacking civilian targets.

Most "third party" observers, IE the UN, consistently finds Israel guilty of war crimes, they act like a terrorist nation. This campaign is very very clearly not about defence, it's about clearing out Gaza, making it uninhabitable (no working hospitals, no working power, no clean water, no food supplies, no housing, nothing) to the current population. Move then in then rebuild under Israel rule.
 
Amp34 said:
And the bombardment that followed killed 40 civilians.

Add to that it appears the Israelis destroyed four (4) tunnels. Four tunnels for 1600 Palestinians dead.

It now looks like they are pulling back voluntarily and withdrawing from any ceasefire agreements which means they won't be compelled to do anything about the conditions in Gaza or lift the blockade. The cynic in me things that's just the reason they are withdrawing...

What a senseless waste. I just hope someone ends up in docks in the Hague over this.
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They may have killed 1600 people(more by now), but they've utterly destroyed local services, denying hospitals clean water and power makes them all but useless. They've destroyed thousands of homes, they've made huge portions of Gaza literally useless in terms of buildings damaged so badly they can't be repaired or lived in. There were 6000 injured 4-5 days ago, that will be even higher, with hospitals being destroyed, the ability for doctors to work severely degraded, I would imagine many of those people are still in trouble.

A city with now what 10k's of refugee's, in a land that has had most services destroyed/disrupted, where Israel still block the borders and will make rebuilding almost impossible.

That the UK/USA sit by and don't call them out on this is so awful.
 
If it were any other country slaughtering civilians, bombing hospitals schools, the West would be rightly condemning them. But the absolute silence by our government and politicians generally here is disgusting. Even if they support Israel right to protect itself, which they obviously do, to ignore the carnage perpetrated by Israel under the guise of protecting it's citizens is shameful and makes me ashamed to be British
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Out of interest, have there been cases of any other nation attacking and bombing UN facilities anywhere? I am sure it must have happened somewhere, I just can't recall it.
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I remember a UN base in South Sudan being attacked:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27074635

But there were UN troops stationed there so they responded and repelled the attack. However, this would be akin to Hamas attacking the UN rather than a country bombing UN facilities.
 
Kronos said:
If it were any other country slaughtering civilians, bombing hospitals schools, the West would be rightly condemning them. But the absolute silence by our government and politicians generally here is disgusting. Even if they support Israel right to protect itself, which they obviously do, to ignore the carnage perpetrated by Israel under the guise of protecting it's citizens is shameful and makes me ashamed to be British
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this is what bugs me, you don't have to dislike Israel to denounce what they are doing. Purely because people have donated to your campaign for election doesn't mean you can't stand up and say when they are doing something entirely wrong. Weak minded politicians without any ability to stand up for what is right. Obama..... nobel peace prize for NOT withdrawing from Iraq as early as he said he would...... supports financially and militarily, the worlds most one sided slaughter. Then you know, agrees to resupply their ammo so they can do it again, and again, and again.

You can support Israel, aid in their defence, yet publicly call them out over the current situation. Simple fact is, having a buffer zone with UN forces is the best option for Israel's defence, Israel are completely uninterested in that and the USA, being fully behind them, help to prevent any UN measures being taken.

For me personally, regardless of if Israel should have been helped or not in the past, now, their military actions have left Israel completely and utterly unsupportable. They are purposefully attacking civilian targets with children and injured people in.... they literally have zero care for civilians and are attacking it because it's a school. To literally end them long term, get rid of water, power, schools, hospitals, government buildings, roads, bridges, long term you make it almost impossible for a large area to support a big population. That is their end goal and they don't care how many are hurt in either the attacks or in the aftermath.

They will continue to blockade Gaza after pulling back, and make it extremely hard if not impossible to rebuild the things that will desperately need rebuilding. Hospitals, schools, water treatment plants
 
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lol, yup, it's always political. Obama without actual proof accusing Russia straight away because politically it suited him, but with absolute proof of war crimes over and over, and over, and over again from Israel, they ignore it.

Even worse that someone can consider... if it was Russia/rebels... what is an accident/mistake worse than intentionally attacking civilians.

Nobel peace prize.... seriously? The simple fact that Bush had planned the withdrawal of Iraq, McCain, Clinton and everyone else who campaigned all also said they would continue the planned withdrawal. So Obama did what was preplanned and expected but gets a nobel peace prize. Ignores atrocities in Palestine, elsewhere in the world, kills civilians daily with a pretty despicable drone attack ramp up in his time.

Can the people who award these daft things not revoke them?
 
drunkenmaster said:
lol, yup, it's always political. Obama without actual proof accusing Russia straight away because politically it suited him, but with absolute proof of war crimes over and over, and over, and over again from Israel, they ignore it.

Even worse that someone can consider... if it was Russia/rebels... what is an accident/mistake worse than intentionally attacking civilians.

Nobel peace prize.... seriously? The simple fact that Bush had planned the withdrawal of Iraq, McCain, Clinton and everyone else who campaigned all also said they would continue the planned withdrawal. So Obama did what was preplanned and expected but gets a nobel peace prize. Ignores atrocities in Palestine, elsewhere in the world, kills civilians daily with a pretty despicable drone attack ramp up in his time.

Can the people who award these daft things not revoke them?
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They don't know or want peace. The very fact they aspired to power over others proves that.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will truly know peace.
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So they can't bring peace to others, only domination or conflict (when there is resistance to their domination). True peace and freedom is when you don't seek power over others, nor allow them to have power over you.

I hear it said often, "But what's the solution? How to achieve peace?". And the truth is it already exists. In the hearts of those on either "side" who have love for their neighbour and know what peace (and justice/fairness) is.

The only obstacle to peace are those who have no time for it, other than to speak about it in order to sound like peace-loving people (i.e. wolves in sheep's clothing). And they hold the reins of power because many still haven't figured out what kind of people they are yet, despite all the evidence, and that it would be wise to stop granting them power over others. But every four years they do the same, over and over.
 
In general we have defence companies lobbying politicians, funding political campaigns and offering cushy jobs with massive wages to those that vote the way they want them to vote when they leave office. War = business, defence companies want war to continue everywhere possible, they make billions a year, spend trillions on war/defence. That money only keeps flowing if the ammo keeps being used, if new weapons are constantly required, new battleships need to be made.

Too many people make money off Israel actually using their military, peace doesn't generate profits, conflict does. USA just decided to resupply Israel with ammo, missiles, etc...

Till politicians aren't paid by defence companies, war/conflicts will continue to occur.
 
Raymond Lin said:
At what point does terrorist become war?

It feels as to me, if the Palestinians have an Airforce, they would be launching air strikes instead and that would be war, but if its rockets, it is terrorists?
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Well, maybe that question can be answered through Israel's own history.

Prior to the creation of the Jewish State, terrorist organisations like the Stern (or "Lehi") and Irgun gang murdered British soldiers in Palestine. And then Britain agreed to fulfill the Balfour Declaration and they got their Jewish State and hey presto, from then on the label changed from terrorist to "Israel's armed forces (IDF)".

Funny thing labels aren't they? If you can control the label, you can control how (plenty of) people perceive it. Israel worked very hard to get the US (and others) to declare Hamas a terrorist organisation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
 
Largely because 98% of the population of most countries read tabloids and don't dig deep into anything, if papers all call Palestinian groups terrorists then 90%+ of readers will be like "oooo, terrorists, I'm with whoever is fighting those guys, ******* terrorists".

While the majority is appeased then politicians can get away with anything. There is a reason governments put a lot of effort into making people feel patriotic about their armed forces, makes it so much more easy to sell invading another country just to push tax money into defence companies pockets as doing the right thing, rather than, senseless war which is mostly being waged for profit.

Hell america treats their vets like utter dirt and has done for decades, yet the media attack those who question the treatment of vets, and constantly push this pro armed forces... the army is great, respect soldiers propaganda to get people to sign up and ignore the terrible things happening to both civilians the armed forces kills and the terrible injuries the soldiers get.
 
drunkenmaster said:
They may have killed 1600 people(more by now), but they've utterly destroyed local services, denying hospitals clean water and power makes them all but useless. They've destroyed thousands of homes, they've made huge portions of Gaza literally useless in terms of buildings damaged so badly they can't be repaired or lived in. There were 6000 injured 4-5 days ago, that will be even higher, with hospitals being destroyed, the ability for doctors to work severely degraded, I would imagine many of those people are still in trouble.

A city with now what 10k's of refugee's, in a land that has had most services destroyed/disrupted, where Israel still block the borders and will make rebuilding almost impossible.

That the UK/USA sit by and don't call them out on this is so awful.
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Maybe this is why the UK doesn't call them out

Dispatches: Inside Britain's Israel Lobby 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lby-BP5xVRI
 
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