Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[Amp34]

Not many of the anti-Israel people commenting now Israel has proof that Hamas is using people as human shields with the goal of them dying.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/hamas-manual-details-civilian-death-plan-israel/

It's interesting who have reported this news. Google seems to suggest that apart from the NYPost, which appears to be the US version of the Sun, the only "reputable" news outlets to report it so far are News.com.au, which has copied and pasted (and linked to) the NYPost and Fox news which has a very short piece. Otherwise all discussion on it appears to be either Israeli based papers or pro Israeli blogs.

While it could be true, it's odd the major newspapers haven't picked it up...

 

[scorza]

The mess in Iraq is caused by a religious and tribal differences that were previously kept in check by a dictator. I am not sure, whatever your argument about whether or not we should have removed that dictator, teaming up with two more dictators (one of which who is brutally repressing 'his' people on a scale a hundred times worse than the recent Gaza conflict) would be the best way to go.

At the very least, teaming up with Syria and Iran would put us in exact political opposition to a number of countries such as Turkey (the so-called regional gateway to the West), Jordan and Egypt.

That would not be very bright.

Islamic State aren't a tribe, they're a group of global jihadis from all over the world, including UK, Australia and Europe. Right now the best option we have is to support the Kurdish peshmerga (and from what I gather that's what the US is doing covertly) who so far have proved the most resilient force against IS. The main problem is that our important NATO ally, Turkey is engaged in a civil war against its own Kurdish separatist groups so some serious diplomacy and tight-rope walking needs to be done.

 

[Tefal]

All valid points but do you believe Israel would be the power it is without the backing and funding of the west?

No, it would have been pushed to the wall by now and probably we'd have seen the first wide spread use of WMDs since ww2 in their attempts to survive.


whether they'd still be here or not by now i don't know but a **** ton more Arabs would be dead than currently are too.

 

[LockyOK]

Why don't you go away and read up on the history of Zionism and tell me how many Jews per year were migrating to Palestine before the Balfour Declaration and after? I think you'll find the declaration made little difference, except that post declaration the British administration was able to work with Jewish groups in Palestine to for example, attempt to curb migration when the number of Jewish refugees rose dramatically as Nazism came to power in central Europe. Why don't you read up on Jewish insurgents in Palestine post 1946 who would kill British soldiers there because we were trying to maintain something vaguely resembling peace between the Jews and the Arabs.

The West never intentionally created Israel, the Israelis created it for themselves, which ultimately is the only way that stable countries get formed - the strong displacing the weak. Anglo-Saxons displacing Britons, Arabs displacing Iberians, Americans displacing Native Americans etc.

You said "Israel/Palestine is a problem that the West didn't create and can't solve."

Like you, I don't know the number of Jews who were settling in Palestine prior to the Balfour Declaration.

I understand (from Wikipedia) that the number of Jews in Palestine in 1914 was about 94,000 (689,000 Muslims). In 1922 the respective figures were 84,000 & 752,000. In 1931 the respective figures were 175,000 & 752,000. In 1947 the respective figures were 630,000 & 1,181,000.

As to your suggestion that the strong should ethnically cleanse regions in order to create states, that is certainly what the Israelis have done and continue to do with the active support and encouragement of the West.


Israel/Palestine IS a problem that the West created and DOESN'T WANT to solve - certainly not in favour of the Palestinians.

 

[scorza]

You said "Israel/Palestine is a problem that the West didn't create and can't solve."

Like you, I don't know the number of Jews who were settling in Palestine prior to the Balfour Declaration.

I understand (from Wikipedia) that the number of Jews in Palestine in 1914 was about 94,000 (689,000 Muslims). In 1922 the respective figures were 84,000 & 752,000. In 1931 the respective figures were 175,000 & 752,000. In 1947 the respective figures were 630,000 & 1,181,000.

As to your suggestion that the strong should ethnically cleanse regions in order to create states, that is certainly what the Israelis have done and continue to do with the active support and encouragement of the West.


Israel/Palestine IS a problem that the West created and DOESN'T WANT to solve - certainly not in favour of the Palestinians.

So five years after the Balfour Declaration there were 10,000 fewer Jewish people living in Palestine than there were three years before it.

I didn't make a suggestion, it's just a statement of fact and something that all countries should bear in mind for future reference.

Did you know that in just one day, IS killed an estimated 2,000 people in Sinjar, Iraq? That's more than the number of Palestinians killed in Operation Protective Edge (i.e. 2014 Israeli invasion of Gaza). Where's the outrage? Where's the Iraqi flag outside UK town halls? Where are the charitable appeals on prime time television? Where's George Galloway and his Respect Party's stance on this? Will he declare that Bradford doesn't want Islamic Extremist tourists?

 

[Craterloads]

Did you know that in just one day, IS killed an estimated 2,000 people in Sinjar, Iraq? That's more than the number of Palestinians killed in Operation Protective Edge (i.e. 2014 Israeli invasion of Gaza). Where's the outrage? Where's the Iraqi flag outside UK town halls? Where are the charitable appeals on prime time television? Where's George Galloway and his Respect Party's stance on this? Will he declare that Bradford doesn't want Islamic Extremist tourists?

I think you will find that did happen 10 years or so ago while the UK and US were bombing Iraq creating this mess.

 

[zoomee]

Scorza is just trolling. Everyone knows he doesn't care about the iraqi people - nor any other middle eastern country as his hatred of Islam influences him too much.

Lest he forgot also the UK's largest protest ever was against the Iraq War:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

Guess he forgot that, that didn't get us anywhere - our leader at the time (Bliar) sold us lies and walked away scot free. Whilst Saddam was a bad man and I can not and will not disagree with that; all the unrest in Iraq shows is that it needed a 'dictator' to rule it and keep the peace, unlike now where everyone is game to kill one another. Just like palestine (from decades ago) we have a hand in what has happened over there.

Over a Million people marched and protested over starting the Iraq war and that got us nowhere. The truth of the matter is plain to see as Blair is still walking around scot free without any accountability of the lives of this country that he lost, let alone the lives of innocent iraqis.

If Scorza was so bothered about Iraq he would be petitioning for Blair to be brought to account rather than crying over what mess Blair left it in.
http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

 

[scorza]

Scorza is just trolling. Everyone knows he doesn't care about the iraqi people - nor any other middle eastern country as his hatred of Islam influences him too much.

Lest he forgot also the UK's largest protest ever was against the Iraq War:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

Guess he forgot that, that didn't get us anywhere - our leader at the time (Bliar) sold us lies and walked away scot free. Whilst Saddam was a bad man and I can not and will not disagree with that; all the unrest in Iraq shows is that it needed a 'dictator' to rule it and keep the peace, unlike now where everyone is game to kill one another. Just like palestine (from decades ago) we have a hand in what has happened over there.

Over a Million people marched and protested over starting the Iraq war and that got us nowhere. The truth of the matter is plain to see as Blair is still walking around scot free without any accountability of the lives of this country that he lost, let alone the lives of innocent iraqis.

If Scorza was so bothered about Iraq he would be petitioning for Blair to be brought to account rather than crying over what mess Blair left it in.
http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

I'm the only one sticking up for the Iraqi people in this thread. Everyone else seems entirely unconcerned about their fate. And no I don't believe that Iraq needs a strongman dictator with a penchant for committing whatever human rights atrocities are en vogue at the present time. Actually I think that's a pretty racist attitude that somehow because they are Arabs they don't have the capability to enjoy life within a stable and successful democracy.

For the record I would gladly see Blair locked up for taking us into Iraq for non-existing WMD, it would be a fitting end to his legacy.

 

[Castiel]

Scorza is just trolling. Everyone knows he doesn't care about the iraqi people - nor any other middle eastern country as his hatred of Islam influences him too much.

That is very harsh, for all his faults, Scorza has always maintained a humanitarian perspective to those under oppression. It makes no difference what religion they are or whether he agrees with their religion or politics or whatever. He has been consistent in sticking up for the little guy pretty much all the time I have been a member here.

I don't think you are being fair to him in saying what I have quoted.

 

[Craterloads]

I'm the only one sticking up for the Iraqi people in this thread. Everyone else seems entirely unconcerned about their fate. And no I don't believe that Iraq needs a strongman dictator with a penchant for committing whatever human rights atrocities are en vogue at the present time.

For the record I would gladly see Blair locked up for taking us into Iraq for non-existing WMD, it would be a fitting end to his legacy.

Perhaps because this is a thread about Israel & Palestine. Because no one is discussing the ebola virus here doesn't mean no one cares, not sure why that needs explaining to you. There are threads dedicated to the Iraq conflict, where you will probably get more relevant responses, and if not create one.

What is going on in Iraq is tragic.

 

[ShaolinDreams]

Hey am i in da right thread... i want to change the exhaust on my bmw.

 

[Amnesia]

For the record I would gladly see Blair locked up for taking us into Iraq for non-existing WMD, it would be a fitting end to his legacy.

Plenty of us feel the same, this just isn't the thread for it.

 

[zoomee]

That is very harsh, for all his faults, Scorza has always maintained a humanitarian perspective to those under oppression. It makes no difference what religion they are or whether he agrees with their religion or politics or whatever. He has been consistent in sticking up for the little guy pretty much all the time I have been a member here.

I don't think you are being fair to him in saying what I have quoted.

Fair enough, I apologise - only threads I've seen him in are the usual muslim bashing ones

I don't disagree with him entirely though - he's right to an extent, that theres plenty of death and murder in the middle east at the moment. Maybe Apathy is setting in with regards to Iraq?

@scorza - Look up Masjid Al-Aqsa and you'll understand why the muslim hearts are attached to Palestine more so than other middle-eastern countries.

I do disagree however that ISIS is supported here by any muslim groups - Not a single muslim I know agrees with what they are doing in Iraq. Islam does not condone the actions of killing innocent people like they have been doing, but again that is for discussion in another thread.

The syrian conflict is still ongoing too but again I digress - There is a common factor however. Western meddling:

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/iraq...f-war-stoked-by-western-meddling#.U-Oug_ldWgs

Western intervention has been the curse of the Middle East for over 100 years. The cure for the crisis in Iraq is not more intervention, says John Rees, but ending this disastrous history of meddling.

 

[zoomee]

Back on track, thousands of Israeli's protested against this war.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-name

Against the war: the movement that dare not speak its name in Israel
Vocal opposition to the war in Gaza can be hard to express in Israel, where campaigner Gideon Levy says people 'leave their liberalism' at the 1967 border

 

[drunkenmaster]

I'm the only one sticking up for the Iraqi people in this thread. Everyone else seems entirely unconcerned about their fate. And no I don't believe that Iraq needs a strongman dictator with a penchant for committing whatever human rights atrocities are en vogue at the present time. Actually I think that's a pretty racist attitude that somehow because they are Arabs they don't have the capability to enjoy life within a stable and successful democracy.

For the record I would gladly see Blair locked up for taking us into Iraq for non-existing WMD, it would be a fitting end to his legacy.

Firstly you're not the only one sticking up for the Iraqi people in this thread, second, quite a few genuine Isis members are Iraqi so you aren't sticking up for all of them and most importantly, no one is sticking up for Isis(if we take that as the converse of sticking up for Iraqi people) in this thread at all because in general Isis isn't being discussed, nor iraq, in this thread because this is a thread about something else.

Should I go post in the graphics card section in a thread on new gpu memory technology and have a go at all of them for not sticking up for Iraqi people and take the lack of anyone doing so previously in that thread as a show of support for Isis? Because that is the logic your current argument is based on, by posting on an entirely different subject and claiming everyone is "for the other side" because they haven't supported your completely off topic assertion in some thread.

There could be Isis supporters lurking around the forums, but I doubt there are many. In almost any thread I read on this forum, the pretty obviously morally wrong side(unless it's the UK ) is usually pretty hated.

 

[Johno please?]

We caused the mess in Iraq and should be helping solve it, unfortunately it would involve teaming up with Iran and the Syrian government which our government would not do. Ergo they are ******.

"Teaming" up with someone who murders their own people? haha what?

 

[arknor]

"Teaming" up with someone who murders their own people? haha what?

you act like our government wouldn't do the same if Birmingham or somewhere tried to rebel against the government and took up arms

 

[Johno please?]

you act like our government wouldn't do the same if Birmingham or somewhere tried to rebel against the government and took up arms

You can stop with the crap analogys, the people in Syria actually had something to be be revolting against.

 

[arknor]

You can stop with the crap analogys, the people in Syria actually had something to be be revolting against.

so do we only posh people in government out for themselves

 

[l2ez4m]

How come Hamas is different from these - same region, same people, same purpose, same means, same religion, ect

So much for the safety of their own kids...