Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

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Soldato
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Glad to see some fantastic military victories for Israel over the last few days. The annihilation of Hamas commanders is truly worthy of celebration. I'll be raising a glass to those responsible for that one tonight.
 
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GazaUnderAttack_18Aug_zpsc2241078.jpg

Looking at these numbers with a little bit of "not rabidly anti Israel" spectacles,
I see that it claims that 43% of the population is under 14 and I would assume children are also those 18 and under which to me would then imply a higher number still under 18.

So, the tragic deaths of 541 children of a total of 2016 is only 26.8% substantially less than even the under 14 years percentage (43%). The number of women being (for assumption 50% of the remaining 57% over 14) would mean 250 and 50 (more than half of the elderly quoted below) which is 300/2016 14.88%...again much lower than half of 57% (28.5%).

So, that to me looks like the remainder of the casualties are men and boys aged over 14. Whilst I would still classify under 18 as a child, this remaining figure is 1063 after I have stripped out the last four non-combatants.

We therefore arrive at a fatality figure of 52.7% being men who are potential combatants (1063/2016). This is significantly greater than the percentage this age group makes of the population. Obviously not all of them are combatants but I would reckon that a significant portion are.

If we look at the injuries, 30% are children and 19% women (both less then that demographic). The balance of 4688 (46%) would therefore be men of combatant age which is again, significantly higher then that demographic (28.5%).

I just used your figures so I am not sure we can dispute the "source" or the "facts".

What I (and I think most non-foaming at the mouth pro-Palestinians) would therefore infer from the above is, tragic though the above civilian casualties are, the women and children component is significantly less than their demographic make up, the potential combatant age is significantly more than their demographic make up.

That is RESTRAINT.
 
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In the interests of actually pursuing a sensible discussion, which land do you think they should get back? All of it, including the bits that were bought (splitting the jewish state into three), back to the original partition, or one of the divisions after the major wars - which would have course require either retaking the Suez or giving the Golan Heights / West Bank back?

Give Palestine back to the way it was pre 1947. The erosion of Palestinian land from 1946 to now and the changes that have occurred over this period shows clearly that Israel has already killed the two-state solution that a lot of people have banged on about, regardless of what happens at UN level.

A "proper" 2 state solution would be good, but as long as Palestine got the land of their choosing - they've been force out and have had their country eroded away by the bullying and heavy handed behaviour of Israel, as a compromise, Israel should accept that Palestine receive the land that they deserve, even if it means that Israel turns out to be a smaller state - too bad.

If they got round a table and said, right, we'll have this bit and cut it fairly and create a simple and clear border - without the sporadic bits of land and oxbows of land that exist now owing to Israel's bloodlust and arrogance and bigotry we could have something sensible. Unfortunately, nothing that the Israelis will be offered will be accepted. Also the Palestinians probably would feel as though it is a raw deal - but perhaps they may see it as a lesser of 2 evils.

To be honest, I'm fed up of this ongoing situation, I wish the aggressors (Israel) would just back down, and I wish that the Palestinians would stop supporting Hamas and push for a resolution - but that won't happen unless the UN and the rest of the Western world actually start to condone Israel's behaviours and sanctions as well as the fact it has illegally encroached on Palestinian land for the past 60 years.
 
Soldato
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That is RESTRAINT.

So the Isrealis didn't kill as many civilians as they could have.... brilliant. The whole conflict is pathetic, why did it start? because 3 Israelis were kidnapped and murdered. Ok whats a reasonable reponse to that, I don't think it's to go and kill thousands of Palestinians and 64 Israeli Soldiers. The whole region is a joke but what I find more repulsive is people trying to justify the killing of civllians.
 
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I am trying to remember which of you were saying that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnapping and murder of the three Jewish students which sparked off this incident (Zoomee? Craterloads? Locky? FilthyChinchilla?). Instead, Israel was blamed and castigated for arresting Hamas supporters/operatives etc.

Well, from the horses mouth, a Hamas official admits to the kidnapping and murders by the Quassam Brigade, the Hamas military wing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-official-admits-organisation-was-behind-kidnapping-of-teenagers-9682299.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-admits-kidnapping-3-young-israeli-men-setting-off-gaza-war-1.2742649

So, first they kidnap and murder the three students (2 of them children), then raise hell at the arrests of Hamas supporters who are suspected, then fire rockets into Israel as a form of protest against the IDF operations to find the kidnappers.

Then, I love this part, protest about all their civilians killed when Hamas themselves have exhorted them (at the very least or even coerced them more likely) to act as a human shield in front of military installation buried under a hospital, in a school, or within a house...in a conflict they started.
 
Soldato
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They cant really do a full 2 state now without going to war with Israel, the only thing is for Hamas or whoever to negotiate sensibly using international pressure and get a fixed agreement. Instead they have a day of rage and other stupid ideas which gain nothing except some sympathy for the subsequent deaths.

They cant hold their tempers long enough, no doubt there is a lot of kicking under the negoiation table to provoke fighting each time

My ideal would be 1 state and Arabs do live in Israel now and mostly as peace. If they could all just agree to do that, who cares about the rest. They could be prosperus but instead they got to have their religion exclusively, if they just had a secular country constitution they'd be fine.

An absolute ideal and I guess wont ever happen. Same for Iraq, different religions but everyone in Iraq could be rich if they just stopped fighting. Concentrate on business it'd give everyone working or not 20k or more a year I estimate and then take your 20k and go build a nice mosque down the street from your neighbour. Qatar has this, a national no work wage

Israel should not be allowed to stop legitimate business in Gaza because distracting people into something more positive and benefical is about the only possible solution it seems to me. Egypt should open the border within reason
 
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So the Isrealis didn't kill as many civilians as they could have.... brilliant. The whole conflict is pathetic, why did it start? because 3 Israelis were kidnapped and murdered. Ok whats a reasonable reponse to that, I don't think it's to go and kill thousands of Palestinians and 64 Israeli Soldiers. The whole region is a joke but what I find more repulsive is people trying to justify the killing of civllians.

I am truly repulsed by people who think that the whole region is a joke and that the conflict is pathetic and then go on to make comments.

You ask a question about what is a reasonable response to the kidnap and murder of the the Israeli students? You tell us what you don't think but fail to tell us what you do think as to how Israel should have responded to it?

Actually, if you think the region is a joke and the conflict pathetic, do you honestly think that I or any of the others here give a **** about what you think?
 
Soldato
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I am truly repulsed by people who think that the whole region is a joke and that the conflict is pathetic and then go on to make comments.

No you aren't.
You ask a question about what is a reasonable response to the kidnap and murder of the the Israeli students? You tell us what you don't think but fail to tell us what you do think as to how Israel should have responded to it?

A reasonable response from a civilized nation to the kidnap and murder of thre of their citizens would be a Police investigation. I fail to see why the Palestinian civilians should be killed in revenge. You do realise those are real people that no longer exist right?

Actually, if you think the region is a joke and the conflict pathetic, do you honestly think that I or any of the others here give a **** about what you think?

Thanks
 
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I fail to see why the Palestinian civilians should be killed in revenge. You do realise those are real people that no longer exist right?

Palestinians voted for Hamas , Hamas killed Israelis, Israel killed Palestinians/Hamas in return. if they really want to end this then its upto the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas.
 
Soldato
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Well that's ok then....

Can't imagine many die by targeted missile strikes, well not outside israel anyway.

Yes, you're right, many die in far more horrifying ways all over the world. Israel might have been willing to accept the loss of a young child, but they didn't go out of their way to kill a child. Meanwhile in Syria, Iraq, Sub-Saharan Africa etc. we've got kids intentionally being slaughtered every day.

Why do you cry such a river over Palestinian blood? We all know why of course: Leftists see Palestine as their little pet project; an opportunity to defend the downtrodden Muslims from the evil Jew.
 
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