Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

You were celebrating the fact that you got it, and I don’t begrudge that, but how can’t you show any empathy towards the situation of people filling these vital roles?

But labour.
I do have empathy for them but I feel some departments should remain unaffected by strikes. A&E and intensive care being two of them.

Although I think the government could sort this with a small increase in the offer. The ballot was pretty close, 54% reject, 48% accept. Doubt it would take much to swing that.
 
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I’d be more than delighted for nurses to get an inflation matching pay rise.
I do have empathy for them but I feel some departments should remain unaffected by strikes. A&E and intensive care being two of them.

Yes, sorry if I was a bit harsh on you but you have to support them, looks like this government won't listen until they have no choice.
 
I do have empathy for them but I feel some departments should remain unaffected by strikes. A&E and intensive care being two of them.

So we mandate that A&E and IC staff cannot take industrial action.. what then?

More of those staff move to other departments where they feel they still "have a voice" and CAN take industrial action, leaving those services you consider so essential lacking essential manpower and skilled staff.

Telling people "Shut up and keep working" (essentially) is NOT the answer to the current pay dispute.
 
I do have empathy for them but I feel some departments should remain unaffected by strikes. A&E and intensive care being two of them.

Although I think the government could sort this with a small increase in the offer. The ballot was pretty close, 54% reject, 48% accept. Doubt it would take much to swing that.

Given how extreme the next strike is and that two thirds either supported or weren't fussed with the proposed pay deal and because the other union has accepted it I wouldn't be surprised if the strike was poorly supported - but we'll see.

You can see how ineffective striking is now as they are having to get longer and longer or more extreme.

If it does go ahead and a load of patients die will it really be worth an extra 1% and loss of pay..
 
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Given how extreme the next strike is and that two thirds either supported or weren't fussed with the proposed pay deal and because the other union has accepted it I wouldn't be surprised if the strike was poorly supported - but we'll see.

You can see how ineffective striking is now as they are having to get longer and longer or more extreme.

If it does go ahead and a load of patients die will it really be worth an extra 1% and loss of pay..
One thing that struck me is that if this issue is so important to them, why couldn’t 39% of members even be bothered to vote!
 
I think aside from pay there are significant changes that could be made to help with junior doctors feeling and being valued:

1) GMC fees covered completely rather than just being tax deductible - if you require a professional registration to work this is paid by companies in the private sector
2) funding for courses and exams. If you worked at a private company or a nurse/PA and the course helps the hospital, it is fully funded with time off for study time. Juniors pay for all costs of courses, qualifications and professional exams which run in to the thousands a year. Some of these are easy to claim back from HMRC, others become a real argument. If you had a private company and paid for a course from accounts no questions would be raised, suddenly because it’s a personal deduction HMRC make it incredibly difficult. The hospitals have a study budget which is around £500 a year. The average cost of a single day course is £4-500 and several of these are a requirement of your training and therefore you end up covering this cost personally.
3) better planning of rotations. There is no need to move locations every year or rotate between the further apart hospitals requiring renting..etc. I was lucky in that my Deanery was small and we were told locations in May for an October start. Others would find out after their annual review and have 2 weeks notice that they were moving from Luton to Great Yarmouth. The days where a doctors salary was the sole income and families would relocate is not possible anymore. Deaneries need to treat trainees like adults and move away from the 1920’s idea that their partner does not work and can move around the country.
4) Setting minimum staffing levels (same as nursing) so that when a lost is vacant, it doesn’t become someone else’s job to cover two roles. Very common that the solution to a long term staff vacancy is that someone covers 2 roles such as the surgical and orthopaedic oncalls, but for no additional pay. Or removing trainees from training activities (clinic, theatre, endoscopy) to cover these gaps. There is no incentive for the hospital to rectify this as it is a cost saving, but it again makes it a toxic relationship where the staff do not feel valued.

The biggest issues with junior doctors is they for 10-15 years we have changed their roles and hospital staffing to maximise cover and efficiency. To do this no one works in teams anymore, so you don’t work with the same people or have clear pathways of who to contact or regular contact with seniors to learn from. This does get better in later years of training (in surgery at least), but it is easy to see why those in junior grades feel that they get paid less than those that came before them, while receiving no teaching or training and getting told it’s ok because if they become a consultant or partnered GP (which a large proportion never will) that it will be worth it.
 
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4) Setting minimum staffing levels (same as nursing) so that when a lost is vacant, it doesn’t become someone else’s job to cover two roles. Very common that the solution to a long term staff vacancy is that someone covers 2 roles such as the surgical and orthopaedic oncalls, but for no additional pay. Or removing trainees from training activities (clinic, theatre, endoscopy) to cover these gaps. There is no incentive for the hospital to rectify this as it is a cost saving, but it again makes it a toxic relationship where the staff do not feel valued.
:cry:

this is me holding 3 on-call bleeps

1ocpoX8.jpg
 
:cry:

this is me holding 3 on-call bleeps

1ocpoX8.jpg
I know the pain (not anymore). The big issue is that rota coordinator/manager will just call and tell you as if it is completely fine. That theatre list you have been looking forward to and been in at 7:15 to consent, well you need to cover the ward and oncall SHO who called in sick. Not a question, because obviously you can’t have evening plans or childcare issues…
 
Unless your a low earner or getting paid minimum wage most likely your typical merit award hasn't been keeping up with inflation for a long, long time now. The only way to catch up or get ahead is move jobs are target promotions, expecting a 35% pay rise is unrealistic and I can't help but think the medical unions have been overrun by radicals leading doctors and nurses up the garden path.
 
I know the pain (not anymore). The big issue is that rota coordinator/manager will just call and tell you as if it is completely fine. That theatre list you have been looking forward to and been in at 7:15 to consent, well you need to cover the ward and oncall SHO who called in sick. Not a question, because obviously you can’t have evening plans or childcare issues…
And it saves the trust money as one cannot turn it down and so they're not inclined to be proactive and look for locums
Aussies got it right for this shenanigans. The doctor covering the extra on-calls gets paid the locum rate that would've been paid anyway.
 
Unless your a low earner or getting paid minimum wage most likely your typical merit award hasn't been keeping up with inflation for a long, long time now. The only way to catch up or get ahead is move jobs are target promotions, expecting a 35% pay rise is unrealistic and I can't help but think the medical unions have been overrun by radicals leading doctors and nurses up the garden path.
You know what's also unrealistic... the current situation.
 
Appears to only be England and NI which charge for NHS parking. It's free in Scotland and Wales and will be free in NI from next year at some point.

I don't believe we should charge for hospital car parks IMHO.
Scotland is better than England for a lot of things... university, prescription charges and their mental health support is excellent compared to ours. it makes you wonder where the money comes from.

iirc (and it may be an article from the express so I would not hang my hat on it) Nicola Sturgeon voted AGAINST rolling out some of this to the whole of the UK because it was too expensive !
 
I think aside from pay there are significant changes that could be made to help with junior doctors feeling and being valued:

1) GMC fees covered completely rather than just being tax deductible - if you require a professional registration to work this is paid by companies in the private sector
2) funding for courses and exams. If you worked at a private company or a nurse/PA and the course helps the hospital, it is fully funded with time off for study time. Juniors pay for all costs of courses, qualifications and professional exams which run in to the thousands a year. Some of these are easy to claim back from HMRC, others become a real argument. If you had a private company and paid for a course from accounts no questions would be raised, suddenly because it’s a personal deduction HMRC make it incredibly difficult. The hospitals have a study budget which is around £500 a year. The average cost of a single day course is £4-500 and several of these are a requirement of your training and therefore you end up covering this cost personally.
3) better planning of rotations. There is no need to move locations every year or rotate between the further apart hospitals requiring renting..etc. I was lucky in that my Deanery was small and we were told locations in May for an October start. Others would find out after their annual review and have 2 weeks notice that they were moving from Luton to Great Yarmouth. The days where a doctors salary was the sole income and families would relocate is not possible anymore. Deaneries need to treat trainees like adults and move away from the 1920’s idea that their partner does not work and can move around the country.
4) Setting minimum staffing levels (same as nursing) so that when a lost is vacant, it doesn’t become someone else’s job to cover two roles. Very common that the solution to a long term staff vacancy is that someone covers 2 roles such as the surgical and orthopaedic oncalls, but for no additional pay. Or removing trainees from training activities (clinic, theatre, endoscopy) to cover these gaps. There is no incentive for the hospital to rectify this as it is a cost saving, but it again makes it a toxic relationship where the staff do not feel valued.

The biggest issues with junior doctors is they for 10-15 years we have changed their roles and hospital staffing to maximise cover and efficiency. To do this no one works in teams anymore, so you don’t work with the same people or have clear pathways of who to contact or regular contact with seniors to learn from. This does get better in later years of training (in surgery at least), but it is easy to see why those in junior grades feel that they get paid less than those that came before them, while receiving no teaching or training and getting told it’s ok because if they become a consultant or partnered GP (which a large proportion never will) that it will be worth it.
Working in teams is such a loss and I hear it from my F2’s and regs all the time. If my consultant was on take, then so was I. We’d finish a post take round from nights and the consultant would take everyone in the team for breakfast in the canteen. It’s small things that makes people feel valued and part of things and from what I hear that would never happen anymore
 
Unless your a low earner or getting paid minimum wage most likely your typical merit award hasn't been keeping up with inflation for a long, long time now. The only way to catch up or get ahead is move jobs are target promotions, expecting a 35% pay rise is unrealistic and I can't help but think the medical unions have been overrun by radicals leading doctors and nurses up the garden path.
You're missed the whole point mate.
My FY1 gets paid what I go paid when I was an FY1 11 years ago. Of course I have/they will get pay rises as we progress the career ladder.

The main point is that as a cohort, the FY1 starting 11 years after I did, is in a worse position than I was due to the previous "pay awards".
(And similarly, I am in a worse position than a registrar was 11 years ago at an equivalent stage)
 
Unless your a low earner or getting paid minimum wage most likely your typical merit award hasn't been keeping up with inflation for a long, long time now. The only way to catch up or get ahead is move jobs are target promotions, expecting a 35% pay rise is unrealistic and I can't help but think the medical unions have been overrun by radicals leading doctors and nurses up the garden path.
Merit awards were overhauled already. Now time fixed and hospitals have a budget, so this determines how many can be given and at what level. The old style lifetime awards that impacted pension are long gone.

Unfortunately there always seems to be a contract negotiated for any public sector role. Then for the next 10-20 years all rises are sub inflation and below other sector jobs. The problem in the NHS at the moment is that they are struggling to recruit in to lots of roles. In the private sector this would be addressed by paying more to attract, but in the public sector it becomes about efficiency so people work harder to cover for those vacancies. There is only soo much capacity to cover before people reduce hours or change their role or leave.

You see the doom spiral in hospitals quite often. They are poorly run/toxic/badly managed so lose staff, heavily rely on locum which are expensive and do not give a long term option and no one wants to join who has been in the department or heard about it. It takes years of change to turn around departments to be placed that people aspire to work. Unfortunately there are several areas within the NHS across the country in this situation and a national shortage of people to fill those gaps.

Edit - if departments are really bad they also lose their trainees. Trainees have the majority of their salary paid centrally by the government for ‘training’ and therefore incredibly good value for a hospital. When departments fail this additional staffing costs will cost an extra hundreds of thousands in big departments.
 
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What's interesting is that "a sense of entitlement" can work both ways can't it...as is "I'm entitled to this..." and "you're not entitled to that..."

Good luck to all the medical staff. We need to make sure you are rewarded to the point it's an atttactive career here versus overseas. You must also have a strong union as otherwise there is no counterbalance for purely political decisions.
 
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