"Just stop oil"

[Maple Leaf]

afaik we have to export our oil abroad because the refineries producing diesel/petrol are predominately abroad, but I guess we could sign contracts to get it all back,

Which makes a mockery of the government's bogus argument that the new oil fields in the North Sea are being exploited purely to safeguard the UK's future energy supply. If we don't even have refineries capable of producing diesel and petrol in this country then we rely on the goodwill of other countries to allow us to purchase those products on the international market.

Why is that a problem? It literally does do that, ultimately the UK doesn't cut itself off from its own supplies and if necessary then they're there!

They are quite capable of screwing up our relationship with our biggest overseas fuel suppliers (look at how the Brexit fiasco has affected our food prices). As jpaul has acknowledged we don't have the refineries capable of producing diesel and petrol in this country anyway so our self-reliance is a joke.

None of this stops us from increasing our usage of renewables

So they should get on with it and stop making excuses.

The fact is we will still be using oil and gas,

Because of decades of failing to invest in the alternatives. Now who benefits from that? Oh yes, the fossil fuel companies and the ruling class they support.

the only difference is the greater security that domestic production gives.

But, outside of some extraordinary crisis (like a World War), it doesn't actually give this country any more energy security than purchasing fossil fuels on the international market.

Ergo, why oppose it?

Because it makes us hypocrites who seek to continue to profit financially from the production of fossil fuels rather than a nation that is supposedly trying to get rid of them as quickly as practically possible. Thus, destroying our moral high ground when it comes to encouraging other countries to go carbon-neutral and develop green technologies.

Also, because the latest IPCC report clearly states that greenhouse gas emissions from the fossil fuel sources currently under extraction will be more than enough to push the average global temperature increase beyond 1.5C. Hence, no new fossil fuel sources can be exploited if we are serious about living up to our commitments under the Paris Agreement and avoiding a significantly worse climate crisis.

 

[dowie]

So they should get on with it and stop making excuses.

They are... and it's still irrelevant to this.

Because of decades of failing to invest in the alternatives. Now who benefits from that? Oh yes, the fossil fuel companies and the ruling class they support.

Nope because you can't fly jets on electricity and they're used for far more than just petrol for our cars and gas for our boilers.

As for the class they support, are you unaware that pensions exist? These are public companies, their owners aren't some cartel of fat cats... look to Russia for that sort of thing.

But, outside of some extraordinary crisis (like a World War), it doesn't actually give this country any more energy security than purchasing fossil fuels on the international market.

We just had one of those extraordinary crisis situations last year!

That's like saying outside of something going wrong on holiday you don't need travel insurance... we duh, that's kind of the whole point.

Because it makes us hypocrites who seek to continue to profit financially from the production of fossil fuels rather than a nation that is supposedly trying to get rid of them as quickly as practically possible. Thus, destroying our moral high ground when it comes to encouraging other countries to go carbon-neutral and develop green technologies.

How does it do that.

Again you've put effort into the irrelevant deflection (we should be investing in renewables - we are..) and some class war nonsense, and attempts to downplay the energy security aspect... but you're still unable to address the key point which is that we will be using oil and gas anyway.

The fact is that we'll simply be importing more if we reduce domestic supply... your only argument there is some claim that it makes us hypocrites. Doesn't seem like a very solid one as it's not clear how using a bit more oil and gas from domestic supply vs importing it is hypocritical or what fundamentally bad thing occurs if we do...

 

[PlacidCasual]

Which makes a mockery of the government's bogus argument that the new oil fields in the North Sea are being exploited purely to safeguard the UK's future energy supply. If we don't even have refineries capable of producing diesel and petrol in this country then we rely on the goodwill of other countries to allow us to purchase those products on the international market.

I don't know where this idea we don't have refineries has come from? During the Ukraine crisis Petrol production was almost entirely domestically produced. I think Diesel is only 80% capacity and we have shut down a number of smaller refineries over the years as domestic demand has waned. We are not wholly at the whims of other countries goodwill, at least not for fuel. I think fertilisers however is a much bigger issue. Our desperate rush to deindustrialise has left us sorely dependent on international supplies of those.

 

[SPG]

The entire argument is ******* as the entire world moves due to Oil whether you like it or not. Putting in the brake lights on our oil consumption and Oil generation is going to do nothing to stop the UK from going further down the ****er than it already is. Yes we should be investing in green technology for power generation but that should be its limit stopping oil for joe public to get from A to B is a **** take.

Hell with all this so called storage surplus we should be making Hydrogen and storing that.... What could possibly go wrong.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I don't know where this idea we don't have refineries has come from? During the Ukraine crisis Petrol production was almost entirely domestically produced. I think Diesel is only 80% capacity and we have shut down a number of smaller refineries over the years as domestic demand has waned. We are not wholly at the whims of other countries goodwill, at least not for fuel. I think fertilisers however is a much bigger issue. Our desperate rush to deindustrialise has left us sorely dependent on international supplies of those.

It came from here:

afaik we have to export our oil abroad because the refineries producing diesel/petrol are predominately abroad, but I guess we could sign contracts to get it all back,
even just for making widgets out of oil, you'd have to make their export difficult, or tax them.
.. so ensuring we have exclusive use is difficult

I know that there are 6 refineries in the UK, but took his word for it about what they produce.

 

[jpaul]

I don't know where this idea we don't have refineries has come from?

eg 'uk oil refinery capacity versus demand' https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/1174047/DUKES_2023_Chapter_3.pdf

Imports of petroleum products increased 16 per cent in 2022 compared to 2021, reflecting theincrease in demand and decrease in production. Diesel held the largest share of product imports,making up 46 per cent of the total product imports and quantities have increased by 10 per cent on 2021.Russia was a major import source for diesel before the invasion of Ukraine, making up over a third of dieselimports in 2019. In 2022, Russia made up only 15 per cent of diesel imports ahead of the ban implemented inDecember, and subsequently indigenous production of diesel increased by 14 per cent in 2022 compared to2021. Petrol imports increased by 4.1 per cent in 2022.Imports of jet fuel, the second largest share of product imports, increased by 78 per cent in2022 as demand for international travel continued to recover. Jet fuel made up a quarter of allproduct imports in 2022, as demand for jet fuel doubled in the UK. The main imports source for jet fuel wereGulf Cooperation Council countries such as Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia.

In 2022, UK production of primary oils fell to an all-time low at 38 million tonnes, this was 8 percent lower than in 2021. Contributing factors included extensive summer maintenance in 2022 which reducedproduction volumes for the remainder for the year.Demand for primary oils increased by 12.4 per cent compared to 2021. Due to continued low production andrefinery maintenance, exports decreased by 10 per cent to 31 million tonnes, compared to peak exports of 90million tonnes in 2000. Imports increased by 12 per cent on 2021 to help meet demand. The UK returned tobeing a net importer of primary oils at 16 million tonnes, the highest net imports of primary oil since 2015.In 2022, refineries took receipt of 7.1 million tonnes of crude produced from the UKContinental Shelf (UKCS), meeting 13 per cent of refinery demand. (see Energy Trends Table 3.10).The UK is reliant on imports to meet refinery demand for specific crude types.

 

[Maple Leaf]

They are... and it's still irrelevant to this.

Not at a fast enough pace. We have neglected to build new onshore wind turbines (the cheapest way to generate electricity) for the last 7 years!

Nope because you can't fly jets on electricity and they're used for far more than just petrol for our cars and gas for our boilers.

You can fly large jet planes on biofuels and electrofuels.

Biofuels development has been held back here for decades due to the government's bias in favour of the fossil fuel industry.

Electrofuels are made by extracting hydrogen from water, combining it with carbon monoxide (made from atmospheric CO2) and using the Fischer-Tropsch process. The Germans used the latter process during World War 2 to produce synthetic diesel, petrol and aviation fuel for their war machine, so it has been proven to be effective.

As for the class they support, are you unaware that pensions exist? These are public companies, their owners aren't some cartel of fat cats... look to Russia for that sort of thing.

Do you really think that the massive ultra-wealthy fossil fuel companies don't have friends-in-high-places here?

43 Lords have financial interests in fossil fuel industry​

There is a huge vested interest in maintaining the current situation among the elites.

We just had one of those extraordinary crisis situations last year!

However, Russian oil is being sold to China and India (and probably other friendly countries) for bargain basement prices. Hence it is lowering their need for international market-priced oil from other suppliers and feeding back into a lower global oil price.

The fact is that we'll simply be importing more if we reduce domestic supply... your only argument there is some claim that it makes us hypocrites. Doesn't seem like a very solid one as it's not clear how using a bit more oil and gas from domestic supply vs importing it is hypocritical or what fundamentally bad thing occurs if we do...

The oil/gas industries of Norway, Denmark and Holland have much lower flaring frequencies (Norway's is 10 times lower) than their UK counterparts, so it's wrong to say that we are the most environmentally friendly producer of fossil fuels.

The hypocrisy is continuing to profit from extracting fossil fuels from new sources rather than just being a consumer of them (who is trying to get off them soon), whilst simultaneously advocating for net-zero and action on climate change.

 

[dowie]

In 2022, UK production of primary oils fell to an all-time low at 38 million tonnes, this was 8 percent lower than in 2021. Contributing factors included extensive summer maintenance in 2022 [...]
In 2022, refineries took receipt of 7.1 million tonnes of crude produced from the UKContinental Shelf (UKCS), meeting 13 per cent of refinery demand. (see Energy Trends Table 3.10).The UK is reliant on imports to meet refinery demand for specific crude types.

What relevance does that have here re: the just stop oil positon?

You've highlighted that we only met 13% of refinery demand in 2022 ( @Maple Leaf seemed to come to some odd conclusion that we don't have refineries capable of producing petrol anymore). Apparently part of that 13% is a result of summer maintenance causing a fall in oil production domestically... but still, supposing we increase that figure and refine more oil from domestic production instead of imported oil why is that an issue?

 

[Maple Leaf]

What relevance does that have here re: the just stop oil positon?

You've highlighted that we only met 13% of refinery demand in 2022 (@Maple Leaf seemed to come to some odd conclusion that we don't have refineries capable of producing petrol anymore).

I didn't come to that conclusion. He did. I was going off his assertion.

 

[dowie]

Not at a fast enough pace. We have neglected to build new onshore wind turbines (the cheapest way to generate electricity) for the last 7 years!

Again what relevance does that have here - why does whether we import oil or extract it domestically impact how fast we switch to renewables?

You can fly large jet planes on biofuels and electrofuels.

Biofuels development has been held back here for decades due to the government's bias in favour of the fossil fuel industry.

Relevance again? How does importing more oil instead of extracting it impact that?

To be clear I'm all for renewables and nuclear, the fact we haven't invested more in nuclear is shambolic. There just doesn't seem to be any clear link to the topic at hand though, it's totally tangental to throw in stuff about what we should be doing re: renewables as regardless of that we'll still be using oil and gas and the question still remains re: whether to import more or extract more domestically.

The hypocrisy is continuing to profit from extracting fossil fuels from new sources rather than just being a consumer of them (who is trying to get off them soon), whilst simultaneously advocating for net-zero and action on climate change.

Well that's clearly flawed, profits in oil and gas don't just come from extraction; trading and refining are sources of profits too.

Essentially your argument uses the logic that a meat eater is somehow hypocritical if he raises some backyard chickens for meat instead of buying chicken from a supermarket.

It's very dubious (even ignoring the flaws pointed out) because the fact remains that we're still going to be using oil it's just that we'd be importing more instead of extracting domestically.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Again what relevance does that have here - why does whether we import oil or extract it domestically impact how fast we switch to renewables?

You're advancing from a false premise. If we have more renewables (and the requisite energy storage systems) we can use less fossil fuels.

Relevance again? How does importing more oil instead of extracting it impact that?

If we hadn't neglected biofuels for decades then we wouldn't need so much fossil fuel (either extracted here or imported).

Also, your point that we need oil to fly planes is incorrect.

Essentially your argument uses the logic that a meat eater is somehow hypocritical if he raises some backyard chickens for meat instead of buying chicken from a supermarket.

Not really. A better analogy would be an alcoholic (who always says he is trying to quit) but is building a moonshine still in his shed and plans on selling it to make a profit too!

 

[dowie]

You're advancing from a false premise. If we have more renewables (and the requisite energy storage systems) we can use less fossil fuels.

No, I'm not, that's obvious and already assumed here.

Again what is the relevance here re: whether we import it or extract it... given we're going to be using some oil and gas?

If we hadn't neglected biofuels for decades then we wouldn't need so much fossil fuel (either extracted here or imported).

So what? We can't change the past what does that have to do with whether we import more or extract?

Also, your point that we need oil to fly planes is incorrect.

No, it isn't (currently) but we don't need to get sidetracked there, even if we had all-electric planes for travel we'd still need oil and gas.

Not really. A better analogy would be an alcoholic (who always says he is trying to quit) but is building a moonshine still in his shed and plans on selling it to make a profit too!

But we're not claiming we're going to quit oil and gas, we're going to reduce it so that analogy doesn't work.

So if you want to use an alcoholic who wishes to reduce his consumption and only drink wine with meals say why is it hypocritical if he ferments his wine at home instead of buying it from a supermarket?

 

[jpaul]

What relevance does that have here re: the just stop oil positon?

You've highlighted that we only met 13% of refinery demand in 2022 ( @Maple Leaf seemed to come to some odd conclusion that we don't have refineries capable of producing petrol anymore). Apparently part of that 13% is a result of summer maintenance causing a fall in oil production domestically... but still, supposing we increase that figure and refine more oil from domestic production instead of imported oil why is that an issue?

the context of the ongoing discussion is
whether we have refineries to meet home demand and provide autonomy, in addition to the question of whether new licenses would provide enough ongoing home resource.
links show we have been importing diesel and jet fuel in particular which suggest we can't do them economically ourselves.
the 13% of refineery demand refers to the fact that only 13% of the oil our refineries use has come from UK sources, also indicative that the petrol we are using that does come predominately from our refineries didn't use our oil.

The just stop oil folks in their turn have made no intellectual/independent input on the significance of the 100 licenses - the media just winds them up and off they go in that protest direction.

 

[dowie]

the context of the ongoing discussion is
whether we have refineries to meet home demand and provide autonomy, in addition to the question of whether new licenses would provide enough ongoing home resource.
links show we have been importing diesel and jet fuel in particular which suggest we can't do them economically ourselves.
the 13% of refineery demand refers to the fact that only 13% of the oil our refineries use has come from UK sources, also indicative that the petrol we are using that does come predominately from our refineries didn't use our oil.

Why is it indicative of that? I don't think anyone is claiming we do extract everything we use and I'm still not sure what you feel is the relevance here?

Clearly, some oil companies have found it is economical enough to extract North Sea oil else they'd not be doing it.

Likewise re: reducing our reliance on oil and gas, if we get fusion for example in the near future we might well drastically do that and investments in new oil & gas extraction might not be so profitable... but that (financial) risk is on the companies doing that work.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Again what is the relevance here re: whether we import it or extract it... given we're going to be using some oil and gas?

Putting aside the ethical, political and environmental arguments. I suspect that if we continue to open up new oil/gas wells in the North Sea our complacent government will simply slow down the rate at which they enact energy-saving measures and roll-out renewables/low-carbon energy generation. It will just seem to be less urgent to get off fossil fuels when they know there is still a supply of them on our territory.

I would hope that with a concerted effort it would be possible to stop using fossil fuel products in the UK over the 27 years between now and 2050. To say that we are definitely going to be using them after 2050 seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It would not be a problem if Carbon Capture and Storage did not have such a poor success rate up to now.

 

[SPG]

Hope, do you have any concept of what we get from oil ? Oil is not going away all you are doing is extending its use.... Maybe not a bad goal but its not going away EVER until the planet is devoid of it, then we will be launching facilities to get the stuff from saturns moon or something.

 

[dowie]

I suspect that if we continue to open up new oil/gas wells in the North Sea our complacent government will simply slow down the rate at which they enact energy-saving measures and roll-out renewables/low-carbon energy generation. It will just seem to be less urgent to get off fossil fuels when they know there is still a supply of them on our territory.

I don't see why that would be the case given that they've already committed to net zero. And the latter part of that argument is rather flawed: if we don't permit new drilling in the near future and rely more on imports then there will be an even bigger supply of them on our territory. The very thing you believe is acting as a perverse incentive is greater if we don't drill in the near future.

I would hope that with a concerted effort it would be possible to stop using fossil fuel products in the UK over the 27 years between now and 2050. To say that we are definitely going to be using them after 2050 seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Unclear how it is self-fulfilling. But suppose for the sake of argument we don't need to use oil and gas in 2050, all the oil byproducts we currently use have substitutes and we're able to fulfill all our energy needs.

Why would it matter if a little bit more the oil we used up until that point was extracted domestically instead of being imported?

 

[bigmike20vt]

i got to this one a little late but dont think it has been posted already.

Jonathan Pie as usual on point (imo).

Sunak Stops Stopping Oil

We're being gaslit out of existence. Literally and Proverbially. For tickets to my NEW LIVE SHOW go to https://www.jonathanpie.com

www.youtube.com

I dont agree with the just stop oil peoples actions, and worse than that i think it alienates people rather than getting people onside......... however i do share their frustrations as to the **** poor job that we (not just uk but humanity in general) are doing at minimising fossil fuel use.

 

[Rroff]

I've always looked down on "rolling coal" but this would have a certain poetic irony for dealing with them:

Might have to make some modifications to my pickup

 

[jpaul]

everyone can be bought with oil money (on during rugby half time)