London pollution & ULEZ

What's the equivalent of "********" but in ULEZ context? That's how this works right?

No idea that was in the filter! I mean the word that Brexit fans use to describe those who wished to remain in the EU.
 
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And yet it’s amazing the polluting cars that ULEZ allow. Once again it’s the poorest who’ll be hit hardest.

I’m all for a low polluting option, but let’s not forget all the ecosystems that’ll be destroyed for the rare metals in these batteries.
 
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Mrwong said:
eight years or 100,000 miles.
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That's the standard warranty period provided by many manufacturers. That doesn't mean they are going to suddenly fail after that point. How long is the usual warranty on an ICE engine? Ignoring some of the newer marques like Kia/Hyundai and MG, isn't it 3 years? And yet, there are plenty of cars much older than that on the road still going strong. How very strange. :rolleyes:

Mrwong said:
Electric cars are too damaging to the environment.


The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about twice that of conventional vehicles."

In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.

Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of conventional car production.
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Absolutely true, they are more polluting to produce than ICE cars, and it takes almost 15-20k* miles to break even! Wait, that's only 2-3 years at the UK average of 7,400 - anything after that point is a net benefit.

Nasher said:
Manufacturers claim they last longer than the car, but it isn't true. You'll find Teslas and other EVs only around 10 years old which have had the batteries replaced. When has anyone ever seen a battery last as long as an engine.
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You will also find Teslas and other EVs older than that on the original battery, and ICE cars which have had their engine replaced after a couple of years, I'm not sure what point you think you are trying to make?

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that unless the battery has actually failed catastrophically, the usual "failure" mode of an EV battery is capacity reduced beyond what is deemed feasible for the car (usually around 70%), and they still have a useful life as energy storage outside of vehicle use. Tell me, what is the useful purpose of a trashed engine after it has been replaced?





* obviously dependent on how the electricity is generated.
 
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Haggisman said:
That's the standard warranty period provided by many manufacturers. That doesn't mean they are going to suddenly fail after that point. How long is the usual warranty on an ICE engine? Ignoring some of the newer marques like Kia/Hyundai and MG, isn't it 3 years? And yet, there are plenty of cars much older than that on the road still going strong. How very strange. :rolleyes:



Absolutely true, they are more polluting to produce than ICE cars, and it takes almost 15-20k* miles to break even! Wait, that's only 2-3 years at the UK average of 7,400 - anything after that point is a net benefit.



You will also find Teslas and other EVs older than that on the original battery, and ICE cars which have had their engine replaced after a couple of years, I'm not sure what point you think you are trying to make?

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that unless the battery has actually failed catastrophically, the usual "failure" mode of an EV battery is capacity reduced beyond what is deemed feasible for the car (usually around 70%), and they still have a useful life as energy storage outside of vehicle use. Tell me, what is the useful purpose of a trashed engine after it has been replaced?





* obviously dependent on how the electricity is generated.
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I think Hyundai is 5 years which I presume covers the battery as well, my parents are on the search for an electric, quite a lot of choice now, no idea on waiting times though!
 
Trifid said:
As a resident of a area outside of London, I'd be happy to see non DPF diesels removed from the road completely, ultimately getting to the point where all vehicles are zero emissions.
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Vehicles will never be zero emissions:

* Emissions to extract the rare earth metals for the batteries and motors.
* Emissions created by burning fossil fuels to generate electricity.

The above emissions are still created. They are just polluting someone else rather than where the driver is using the car. But the next two will still be creating pollution as the car is driven:

* Brake dust.
* Rubber tyre particles.
 
Haggisman said:
That's the standard warranty period provided by many manufacturers. That doesn't mean they are going to suddenly fail after that point. How long is the usual warranty on an ICE engine? Ignoring some of the newer marques like Kia/Hyundai and MG, isn't it 3 years? And yet, there are plenty of cars much older than that on the road still going strong. How very strange. :rolleyes:



Absolutely true, they are more polluting to produce than ICE cars, and it takes almost 15-20k* miles to break even! Wait, that's only 2-3 years at the UK average of 7,400 - anything after that point is a net benefit.



You will also find Teslas and other EVs older than that on the original battery, and ICE cars which have had their engine replaced after a couple of years, I'm not sure what point you think you are trying to make?

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that unless the battery has actually failed catastrophically, the usual "failure" mode of an EV battery is capacity reduced beyond what is deemed feasible for the car (usually around 70%), and they still have a useful life as energy storage outside of vehicle use. Tell me, what is the useful purpose of a trashed engine after it has been replaced?





* obviously dependent on how the electricity is generated.
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The point being made is that a typical ICE car engine will last 10-20 years. As it starts to fail, it typically is fairly repairable as in it's design it is very modular. i.e. Head gasket goes. Starter motor fails. Water pump etc etc etc. With an EV car, the battery power source starts losing performance immediately from day 1 at a much faster rate which affects actual range. An ICE car with an engine barely hanging on after 20 years will still do a lot closer to its original range. Then if the battery on an EV does start to go, it is not repairable. You can't replace parts of it as far as I am aware. It's an all or nothing job which can write cars off or massively devalue them a lot earlier into their life.
There is a lot of fear in dropping typically a lot MORE money into an EV than an equivalent ICE car right now due to a range of issues. Infrastructure not being there. Energy costs. Potential poor value of older EV cars. Future of EV is not clear.
 
Bugger.

I visit my brother now and then in Beckenham, which will be under the new ulez zone, my car is ok, but I'll need to pay £5 for the Dartford crossing and it uses more fuel.

My motorcycle which uses less fuel is not ulez compliant because it's old.

So pay more petrol and £5 crossing, or pay whatever is os, £16 per day? so double that then for ulez.

**** our government.
 
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I have a mate that lives just inside the zone literally. He's only just found out today as I told him. He has an old superbike on carbs which won't comply. He also has a 2006 ish BMW estate Diesel thing which he literally depends on. Doesn't comply. :O
 
neilw said:
A Lamborghini Urus is exempt but a 2002 VM Lupo 1ltr must pay :rolleyes:
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Yes it's crap. But in the case of the Lupo you might be able to get it individually certified. If you have a non-compliant car then check the emissions level at the next MOT. If it's low enough then you can apply for an exemption.
 
jaybee said:
I have a mate that lives just inside the zone literally. He's only just found out today as I told him. He has an old superbike on carbs which won't comply. He also has a 2006 ish BMW estate Diesel thing which he literally depends on. Doesn't comply. :O
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That Chessington "arm" out from the centre stops just down the road from me. It nearly got me. It means if I do put the Corrado back on the road then I have to turn left rather than right otherwise I would be stuffed.
 
robj20 said:
Cars without tyres or brakes? Interesting. It's all a con the majority of the emissions they're concerned about don't even come out of the exhaust of a car.

If they were so concerned with car emissions they'd be looking at different materials for tyres.
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Or if people didn't drive like idiots. A lot of tyre and braking pollution is from excess acceleration. Cars should have come fitted with black boxes, GPS enforced speed limiters, be 100% automatic and a 0-60 of something far more reasonable for years now.

Crazy motorists and the car industry are just far to big a lobby.

Bad driving - and here I mean not just bullying all pedestrians as most motorists do - but actually driving in such a way as to wear out the car for no better reason than to get stuck at the next traffic light causes far more pollution than careful driving but nobody has the courage to crack down on it.

There's always the age old motorists excuse: "I need a car which can do 0-60 in 5 seconds in case I suddenly have to overtake" or similar nonsense which is so rare that it should never inform policy.
Nasher said:
Manufacturers claim they last longer than the car, but it isn't true. You'll find Teslas and other EVs only around 10 years old which have had the batteries replaced. When has anyone ever seen a battery last as long as an engine.
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Aren't LiFePO / LFP batteries fairly recent?
en.wikipedia.org

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
compared to older Lithium Ion batteries the max recharge cycles of those new ones is about x10 so 600 to 6,000 is possible. A pity that they are not in phones even if they are a bit bulkier as batteries wearing out on phones is major scandal.
 
jaybee said:
The point being made is that a typical ICE car engine will last 10-20 years.
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A typical electric car battery will last 10-20 years too.

jaybee said:
As it starts to fail, it typically is fairly repairable as in it's design it is very modular. i.e. Head gasket goes. Starter motor fails. Water pump etc etc etc.
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Sure, but the parts cost money every time it goes to a garage. Head gasket, £600? Starter motor £300 inc labour?

All adds up.

jaybee said:
With an EV car, the battery power source starts losing performance immediately from day 1 at a much faster rate which affects actual range.
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You lose about 2% capacity per year.

jaybee said:
An ICE car with an engine barely hanging on after 20 years will still do a lot closer to its original range. Then if the battery on an EV does start to go, it is not repairable.
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It is reusable though, even if it does need to be replaced it's not a total waste.

jaybee said:
You can't replace parts of it as far as I am aware. It's an all or nothing job which can write cars off or massively devalue them a lot earlier into their life.
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Batteries cost £3,000-£10,000 right now, dependant on model/capacity. That wouldn't write off a car and having a brand new battery would increase value, if anything.

Also, battery costs have plummeted. They were £700 kw/h in 2010, they're about £80 now. So in the hypothetical 10-20 years they could drop again to £20 kw/h and would be a cheap fix.
 
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