Making a murderer - The Avery case (Spoilers)

[Cosimo]

Threads about this here:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18709660

and here:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18712417

 

[randomshenans]

I think it shows that Raymond is clearly the most dangerous man we've ever had on these forums.

 

[antijoke]

I think it shows that Raymond is clearly the most dangerous man we've ever had on these forums.

Add to the fact he's a photographer and we have a motive too, time to get Colborne and Lenk on the phone.

 

[jsmoke]

Hope you have plenty bin liners and bleach Raymond.

 

[shorttricky]

Truly fascinating documentary, I don't think I've ever been more utterly engrossed. How either of them was convicted "beyond a reasonable doubt" is mind-boggling. I guess if the police and the press decide you're guilty early on, you might as well just pack your toothbrush.

This is where the Police corruption starts to come in. Andrew Colborn discovers the vehicle two days before it's found on the Avery property. I would say this is 99% certain when you hear his call with dispatch.

How this wasn't the biggest flag with the jury was beyond me - surely everyone has watched enough Cops to know that that call is made when the officer is looking at the car - I thought TV crime stuff was accused of influencing jurors

Up until the EDTA result I thought it was a 100% setup, but then maybe the EDTA result was also fictional.

Don't forget it was a brand new test - one which should have taken years to come up with and validate, but that happily (conveniently) got done in a few months. It's perfectly possible that EDTA evaporates in blood exposed to air/heat/sun/whatever, or that only so many parts per million can be detected. Maybe in 18 years the technology will be good enough to determine that.

 

[Spit]

Just watched Dear Zachary on YouTube which is another negligence case

 

[SonniLombardi]

He was young and he owned up to that. He has an IQ of 70 and was barely functioning at school. I'd understood it as throwing the cat over, not into the fire. Obviously disgusting but a slight difference.

Doesn't detract from the fact that because some corrupt cops hated the family a real rapist was free to carry out an unknown number of crimes (at least one more) in following years.

Although I do admit the show probably does fail to mention lots of things. Must say though 18 years in a prison will probably make anyone a bit sadistic.

He was 20, ok young but not young enough to not know the difference, IQ 70 you don't think knew what he doing putting a flammable substance on the cat then throwing it towards a flame?

He assaulted his cousins the wife of a sheriff deputy no wonder they had it in for him..

At the expense of women being a raped and murdered? Let's not forget another woman was assaulted because the police didn't do their job in the Penny Beernsten case.

I didn't say that, animal cruelty is one thing in my eyes I really detest, obviously the other things are awful too.

 

[timmeh]

Edit: Snip.

 

[timmeh]

Just watched Dear Zachary on YouTube which is another negligence case

I watched it this weekend. Absolutely shocking.

 

[jsmoke]

Is a key point though whether SA said he saw her driving away from the site. If he did then no witnesses driving around there saw her?
That means she had to be abducted, maybe stopped, lured or run off the road, did the forensics team(FT) check the rav4 for signs of damage?
Did the FT check for her outgoing tire treads at the Avery site or at the quarry. Maybe the ex did stalk her and lured her to the quarry then deleted phone records.
Did the ex know who SA was?

 

[jas72]

Steven Avery's motive for killing 0

Sheriff's department and police officers' motive for pinning it on him 32 000 000 USD

 

[jas72]

Don't forget it was a brand new test - one which should have taken years to come up with and validate, but that happily (conveniently) got done in a few months. It's perfectly possible that EDTA evaporates in blood exposed to air/heat/sun/whatever, or that only so many parts per million can be detected.

Actually from what I remember it wasn't a new test it was one that was tried and not used as it wasn't reliable enough.

They did it within weeks not even months.

Since there were no control markers it was a waste of time since it was not known at what point on the spectrum the substance actually turns up. This was a side show and should not have been allowed in court the defence tried to get it stopped also the defence could not do their own tests since it was too specialised that no other crime lab performed the test (since it was unreliable)

Also I bet that if they did finally perfect this test the vial would be considered contaminated since it was tampered with.

Avery was damned ever since Katz announced to the world exactly how Steven and Brendan killed Theresa forever tainting the jury pool. A despicable act by a supposedly honourable DA.

 

[HummuH1]

Was totally engrossed in this.

Interesting that the documentary left out what appear to have been 3 "key" pieces of evidence namely the hand-cuffs, SA's sweat found underneath Rav4 bonnet and the burned mobile phone.

Having read up on it more, that doesn't change by opinion and whilst I am 50/50 on SA's involvement somewhere along the line, there is no way either of them should have been convicted on the basis of the evidence put forward and the local police were at it beyond belief.

 

[OldComputerGuy7]

From what i have read it seems he is guilty as hell but case should be thrown out because the police did not handle his case correctly due to corruption.

I have been reading a little on the case and found this article to be interesting.
http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

Here are some basic things we know right now:

#Parts of Halbach’s body were found burned in Avery’s fire pit.

#Evidence of Avery’s involvement was found inside his home.

#There is DNA evidence tying the bullet found in the Avery garage to Halbach.

#Avery was the last known person to see Halbach alive.

#Police found her car, with blood on it and in it, left on the Avery family’s lot.

#Avery’s high-school age cousin, Brendan Dassey, confessed that he had assisted his uncle in murder of Halbach.*

A few others which talk about the missing info from the TV show
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/things-steven-avery-making-murderer/story?id=36090236


http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/evidence-s-missing-making-murderer-article-1.2485213

Avery was violent to other women

The docuseries mentioned Avery once held his female cousin at gunpoint, but the list of violence apparently didn’t end there.

The now-53-year-old allegedly raped a young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out, according to a story by the Appleton Post Crescent.

Another older woman told to keep quiet also accused Avery of rape, according to the paper.

And, during a bail hearing for Avery, prosecutors said Avery had drawn up diagrams while in prison for a torture chamber to kill women.

Avery allegedly molested Dassey

In a phone conversation shown in the docuseries, Dassey admits his role in Halbach’s murder to his mother — a statement he later denies.

However, the show cut out an important revelation in which Dassey said his uncle inappropriately touched him.

“I even told them about Steven touching me,” the then 16-year-old said, according to the transcript of the conversation.

He goes on to tell his shocked mother that he and his brothers were touched on occasions before the Halbach murder.

I also found this video quite good at explaining the bias of the TV show

This is another good link which explains most of the case
http://truecrimecases.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/steven-avery.html
His brothers chuck and Earl also seem to violent against women also

His older brother Chuck, 51, pled guilty to disorderly conduct in 1998 and ultimately served 60 days in jail. In 1999 Chuck Avery’s former wife accused him of sexual assault and attempting to strangle her with a telephone cord. The charge was dismissed.
Stephen’s younger brother Earl, 35, pleaded no contest to battery and sexual assault charges in 1992, stemming from an attack on his wife. He received 18 months probation.
The brothers all work for Avery Auto Salvage.

Sounds like the whole family are scum, have no sympathy for any of them.
I guess that's why the police decided to do what they did because they knew it was the morally right thing to do to get him behind bars even if its not the legal thing to do.

Just doing about an hour of reading online has shown quite a few holes in averys side of the story and the TV shows one sided approach, its kinda worrying that people can watch a show about a criminal and because of the the emotional nature of it just suspend logic and reason and go straight too lets release him back on the streets regardless of what a violent loon he is.
Although it does seem like the way things are starting to operate these days, nobody thinks things through just reacts based on emotion.

 

[olivier renault]

I wouldn't trust him or any of his family with my dog, and I don't have one.

But those 'confession' tapes were disgusting.

And the police department, talk about a clique!

Still, interesting show, very biased though.

Poor girl, and her family. That show isn't gonna do them any good.

 

[ColdAsIce]

You cannot pin a murder on someone just because you believe the family to be scum.

Even more so when the State, Police etc specifically target that person. That is incredibly scary. Even if Steven Avery did the murder, then do the correct police work and prove the crime.

Once the Police are allowed to plant evidence and target people, the system has failed.

 

[shorttricky]

Just doing about an hour of reading online has shown quite a few holes in averys side of the story and the TV shows one sided approach, its kinda worrying that people can watch a show about a criminal and because of the the emotional nature of it just suspend logic and reason and go straight too lets release him back on the streets regardless of what a violent loon he is.
Although it does seem like the way things are starting to operate these days, nobody thinks things through just reacts based on emotion.

A whole hour on sites with totally objective titles like "‘Making A Murderer’ Subject Steven Avery Is Guilty As Hell"? Good move to not take the one-sided approach there

Steven had a presumption of innocence and the right to be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. After watching the show and then reading up on the supposedly case-breaking missed out evidence (several pieces of which are the DA directly testifying with zero evidence), I believe he got neither of those things. If you see that as suspending logic, I would suggest you should read up on both those tenets of law to understand what they mean.

Sounds like the whole family are scum, have no sympathy for any of them.
I guess that's why the police decided to do what they did because they knew it was the morally right thing to do to get him behind bars even if its not the legal thing to do.

Nicely done to keep the old reaction based on emotion hidden away there. You do understand; regardless of your feelings about the man who you know absolutely nothing about to make those assertions; that is 100% not how the law is meant to work?

 

[enigma27]

The most astonishing part I found is the juror that left and got interviewed..

Before he left he said it was 7 for innocent, 2 for guilty and 2 undecided..

After he left and was replaced it swung in a different direction.

I never really did like the way Juror's all talked between themselves to come to a verdict.. to much ability for one to influence another.. Always thought it would be better for juror's to deliberate themselves and then put there verdict into a box like a ballot and then the results totaled up.

I can only imagine in this case a few were swayed by others to return the verdict.

 

[v0n]

One of the best mockumentaries out there, I didn't realise it was fake until I saw the multicamera work with the actors pretending to be TV crew.

Fake edit: WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT WAS REAL?!

No, in all seriousness, I actually dig the fact this documentary was biased, because unlike jury, judge and entire US watching TV at the time it allowed us to distance ourselves from the fact that Steven Avery was a violent, unlikeable, inbred hick with seriously dodgy past and company. We didn't get to see how all the circumstances put together undeniably mixed him into this crime, in whatever capacity, and how his life was the world where bad things were done to good people by nasty element.

Instead, because what we saw was heavily biased and filtered, we got to see what the judge and jurors didn't believe or pay attention to - the corruption, the overeagerness, the entrapment, the world where despicable things are done to terrible people by those rotten to the core, in the name of good. We got to see the world that's only charcoal grey, with no black or white or lines between the two.

And that made for absolutely fascinating viewing. It's like Fargo from nightmares. Better than any fictional crime story in the last decade.

 

[fez]

I never really did like the way Juror's all talked between themselves to come to a verdict.. to much ability for one to influence another.. Always thought it would be better for juror's to deliberate themselves and then put there verdict into a box like a ballot and then the results totaled up.

I can only imagine in this case a few were swayed by others to return the verdict.

I don't think that its a bad thing at all. Its one of the most important parts of a jury really. If you cannot maintain your view and decision in the face of critical questioning from the other jurors then you are probably incorrect. There will be some things that are complete interpretation but plenty of things are down to understanding the subject matter and the interplay of differing factors.

A jury isn't made up of our best and brightest, its made up of people who could range from the borderline special needs all the way to geniuses. You must have spoken to people who base their opinion simply on "feelings" or "thats just what I believe". Thats not a good person to have deliberating on a crime without external questioning.