May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[Yas786]

Honestly? I am struggling with that post and Spawn's prior to it. Can people honestly believe such things as literal truths in this day and age? I see it as just as fantastical and just as ludicrous as the literal belief in Creation and the Flood.

Well thats your opinion obviously...and yes i and other muslims do believe in it literally or else we wouldnt be a muslims.

Only way we will know for sure is when the day of judgement comes...even the Bible states that there will be a day of judgement/reckoning.

Unfortunately for the non believers ie the ones who dont believe in God have absolutely no salvation...they will spend eternity in hell. Again thats islams take on the concept of heaven and hell.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Well we must be if we are pumping out babies at an alarming rate...

You don't need to be good at sex to impregnate a woman , 10 seconds is enough

 

[NeilF]

If is fair for children becuase they are innocent. As for yourself you have the freedom to accept or reject god.

Again, utterly miss the point. Why so hard?


The point is, has the child died by chance, or by the will of God?

Chance = Getting to Heaven is a lottery. That child died young and got to go straight to heaven. Why were they so lucky? Why did they not have to go through the same risk as the rest of us?

God's will = What did that X month old child do to deserve this ultimate gift at no risk?

You said you dont believe in religion and you have the freedom to do so. But then how can you expect heaven when you rejected god.

I don't reject God... I have not the slightest reason (or need) to believe in him. From your point of view you could argue God made me the way I am, decided where I was born, and into what culture, gave me the life experiences that have led me to where I am now... So it's Gods fault if I don't believe in God...


The system is all to random and unfair, consider the 'prize' is the biggest prize possible (Heaven), it's implausible to think that such a supreme being would design it. Being so flawed, it sounds more like something humans might invent.

 

[e36Adz]

You've missed the point. I'll pin it down to an exact question/example...

A 2 month old child dies. Is this by chance or God's will?

If it's by chance, then can a system be fair, when by shear chance some individuals get to go strqight to heaven, no questions asked? The worlds worst sinner, had he died young would have instead gone to heaven. System = lottery!

If it's by God's will, then how does God decide that some individuals decide this ultimate gift? ie: A free pass to heaven no questions asked?

The system is either a lottery or rigged. Either way it's daft surely...

Everything that happens is by Gods will. Muslims believe that 'a leaf cannot even fall of a tree without the will of God'. I don't think I have missed your point, as I do understand what you are asking.

The problem is that, we as human beings have a very limited understanding and we cannot possibly understand God in His infinite wisdom. He created us, He knows us better then we know ourselves. If he says this is right and this is wrong, that is not something for us to debate.

Like I stated previously though, whether a child dies at 2 months old or lives to 102 years old, God already knows everything that person would have done. The future is unseen for us, yet God is not limited by time/space as we are. We cannot give reasons why a particular child died at a certain age, but if you believe in God, you know that there may be some hidden wisdom there.

The true believers never falter in their belief in God, even when 'bad' things appear to happen because we have complete faith in Him.

What you are saying is that, if it's Gods will, it is rigged and therefore, daft. God already knows the outcome of every person, does that mean this life is pointless and we should have just been placed in our destination? Does that mean we do not have any choice? Ofcourse it does not, like I said God exists outside of time/space, which we are bound by. He created time/space. There is nothing rigged if each person is given enough intellect to accept the true faith. If someone is mentally impaired, then he/she will also be dealt with according to whatever they were capable off.

 

[NeilF]

You don't need to be good at sex to impregnate a woman , 10 seconds is enough

Hey! Don't be so selfish! Add another 2-3 seconds for foreplay!

 

[Yas786]

The worlds worst sinner, had he died young would have instead gone to heaven. System = lottery!

This is the bit i dont quite understand...if the worlds worst sinner had died young then hes obviously of sound mind to commit sins so he wont automatically go to heaven ie free pass. But up until a child can make its own decisions they are considered innocent. But on the flipside, we as muslims believe that God is merciful and forgiving so God may well forgive sinners and give them a free pass to heaven.

But people who do not believe in God will never get to heaven as far as ive been taught and read in the Quran.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Why don't people try applying logic to this stuff? We are all intelligent people after all.

 

[TipTop]

Can people honestly believe such things as literal truths in this day and age?

This poor guy didn't.

Maldives: Man Attacked, Threatened with Death, for Freedom of Conscience

In the Muslim-majority nation of Maldives, a man stunned an audience during questions and answers period in a lecture given by an Islamic cleric, by stating that he had chosen freedom of conscience not to follow Islam. The man, Mohamed Nazim, was promptly attacked, taken into custody, and has been threatened with death and beheading, or other punishments for choosing his freedom of conscience. Maldives media are reporting that it is the first time in many hundreds of years that a Maldivian has publicly renounced Islam, since Sultan King Hassan IX converted to Christianity in 1552 and was deposed.

http://www.realcourage.org/2010/05/mohamed-nazim/

Barbaric savages.

 

[Yas786]

You don't need to be good at sex to impregnate a woman , 10 seconds is enough

Well lets not talk about yourself shall we??

 

[NeilF]

This is the bit i dont quite understand...if the worlds worst sinner had died young then hes obviously of sound mind to commit sins so he wont automatically go to heaven ie free pass.

LOL! So the system is even more rotten.

Now you're saying a 2 month old child can be sent to hell? At that age, everything that child is, is down to the way God made them.

If you consider a serial killer:-
a) They may be born prone to it = God has decided to send them to hell.
b) Life events make them that way = God has decided to send them to hell.

The system is just so unfair, flawed and rigged, it's impossible to believe in...

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Well lets not talk about yourself shall we??

predicted reply

 

[Yas786]

LOL! So the system is even more rotten.

Now you're saying a 2 month old child can be sent to hell? At that age, everything that child is, is down to the way God made them.

If you consider a serial killer:-
a) They may be born prone to it = God has decided to send them to hell.
b) Life events make them that way = God has decided to send them to hell.

The system is just so unfair, flawed and rigged, it's impossible to believe in...

Ermmm please explain to me how a 2mth old baby can commit a sin please??...i was talking about a much older child for a start.

Babies that die very young are sent to heaven...simple as that.

The system to you might be unfair, flawed and rigged but to me and others it isnt....it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand the concept of that.

 

[PMKeates]

Why don't people try applying logic to this stuff? We are all intelligent people after all.

That's rarely possible when it comes to religion.

You only have to look at the very high chance that a child will take the religion of it's parent to see that religion is nothing to do with individual thought or logic or rational reasoning, but all to do with indoctrination and oppression.

 

[p0rks0da]

Everything that happens is by Gods will. Muslims believe that 'a leaf cannot even fall of a tree without the will of God'. I don't think I have missed your point, as I do understand what you are asking.

The problem is that, we as human beings have a very limited understanding and we cannot possibly understand God in His infinite wisdom. He created us, He knows us better then we know ourselves. If he says this is right and this is wrong, that is not something for us to debate.

Like I stated previously though, whether a child dies at 2 months old or lives to 102 years old, God already knows everything that person would have done. The future is unseen for us, yet God is not limited by time/space as we are. We cannot give reasons why a particular child died at a certain age, but if you believe in God, you know that there may be some hidden wisdom there.

The true believers never falter in their belief in God, even when 'bad' things appear to happen because we have complete faith in Him.

What you are saying is that, if it's Gods will, it is rigged and therefore, daft. God already knows the outcome of every person, does that mean this life is pointless and we should have just been placed in our destination? Does that mean we do not have any choice? Ofcourse it does not, like I said God exists outside of time/space, which we are bound by. He created time/space. There is nothing rigged if each person is given enough intellect to accept the true faith. If someone is mentally impaired, then he/she will also be dealt with according to whatever they were capable off.

You do understand that if nothing can happen without God making it so, then nobody has a choice in anything. You cannot choose to be a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jew etc... and in fact you have no mind of your own. Every decision you thought you ever made was in fact the work of God. You never achieved anything in your life, and you never will, you will just follow the grand script laid down for you.

If God controls everything, there can be no good or bad individuals, because there is no ability for an individual to make good or bad decisions.

 

[Yas786]

predicted reply

LOL sorry dude but you kinda left yourself open to that one

 

[e36Adz]

I don't reject God... I have not the slightest reason (or need) to believe in him. From your point of view you could argue God made me the way I am, decided where I was born, and into what culture, gave me the life experiences that have led me to where I am now... So it's Gods fault if I don't believe in God...

The system is all to random and unfair, consider the 'prize' is the biggest prize possible (Heaven), it's implausible to think that such a supreme being would design it. Being so flawed, it sounds more like something humans might invent.

The only flaws are our interpretatons or explanations, there are no flaws in Gods plan. You may be far greater in understanding then me or the next person, and you may take much more from reading and trying to understand the Quran and the hadith of our prophet pbuh. But while the same scripture guides those who have faith in their heart, it will also send further into disbelief those who have no faith and whose intention is not to seek the truth (they infact hate the truth) and they only look to mock and ridicule.

 

[NeilF]

Ermmm please explain to me how a 2mth old baby can commit a sin please??...i was talking about a much older child for a start.

Babies that die very young are sent to heaven...simple as that.

The system to you might be unfair, flawed and rigged but to me and others it isnt....it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand the concept of that.

Of course it's utterly flawed and unfair... An individual born to one time, culture, parents and set of life events, will undoubtably turn out utterly different if born to a different time, culture, parents and set of life events... It's a huge, random lottery, and as such utterly unfair if the result is you going to Hell or Heaven.

Had Hitler been born to different parents, in a different country and had a completely different set of life events, he could well have been the nicest person you were ever likely to meet...

Had I been born in Iran, chances are I'd be a nicely condition Muslim, destined for my hurd of virgins! Instead, I was born in the UK, with more liberal thinking, and my life events have led me to not believe in God.

All just too random...

 

[e36Adz]

You do understand that if nothing can happen without God making it so, then nobody has a choice in anything. You cannot choose to be a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jew etc... and in fact you have no mind of your own. Every decision you thought you ever made was in fact the work of God. You never achieved anything in your life, and you never will, you will just follow the grand script laid down for you.

If God controls everything, there can be no good or bad individuals, because there is no ability for an individual to make good or bad decisions.

I said that nothing can happen without the will of God. Your heart cannot beat, your lungs cannot take in oxygen, you would not be alive right now, if it wasn't for Gods will. God has allowed things to happen, and he has given people the freedom to choose. Are you denying that you have any choice?

I could have posted this, or I could have not bothered too. God knew all along whether I would have, and I have only been able to do so by His will. But at no point did anyone force me too, it was my own choice.

The attempt of trying to shift blame on to someone else will not work.

Neil, do not take everything said in here by muslim posters including myself as 'Islam definately says this...' because even I am getting confused by reading some replies so I can imagine for a non muslim they must really be scratching their head.

 

[p0rks0da]

I said that nothing can happen without the will of God. Your heart cannot beat, your lungs cannot take in oxygen, you would not be alive right now, if it wasn't for Gods will. God has allowed things to happen, and he has given people the freedom to choose. Are you denying that you have any choice?

I could have posted this, or I could have not bothered too. God knew all along whether I would have, and I have only been able to do so by His will. But at no point did anyone force me too, it was my own choice.

The attempt of trying to shift blame on to someone else will not work.

Neil, do not take everything said in here by muslim posters including myself as 'Islam definately says this...' because even I am getting confused by reading some replies so I can imagine for a non muslim they must really be scratching their head.

You say that nothing can happen without the will of God, and also that God knows what will happen to everyone. How can there be free will if nothing can happen without God controlling it, and how can God know what everyone will do from the day they are born until the day that they die?

Either there is free will and God is not all powerful, or God is all powerful and there is no free will. Which is it?

 

[NeilF]

and whose intention is not to seek the truth (they infact hate the truth).

On the contrary, I would suggest most religious individuals "hate the truth" - They have not one shred of evidence to support their belief, cannot explain the imperfections, implausibilty and obvious unfairness of it all, and even go to great lengths invent ever more complex towers of assumptions to support it all...

Whether someone believes is so geared towards their time/place of birth and upbringing, it's ridiculous to suggest there's any sort of fairness in the system. Furthermore one's overall character is just as random. Had I been born into Hitler's exact shoes, I would undoubtably have become the monster he had. If this is not the case, then why not? The only different was our mindset at birth, and this is surely either random or God given. Again, the system is shown to be utterly flawed.


There's an obvious reason why the system is the way it is, and why no one sees or hears God; There isn't one. Our naivety and self important thinks we need one...