May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[FoxEye]

I'll make it as easy for you as I can... Address the question:-
- Do you think everyone, no matter when they were born, or where they were born, has the same chance in believing in God? I'd say the odds change drastically! How is that fair? (I guarantee you will not answer this question) Had I been born in a different time (eg: 300 years earlier), and different place (eg: Iran) there would probably be a greater chance of me being religious. Why am I dealt a worse hand? How is this a divine system? I go to hell due to bad luck?

If you want a Christian answer to this, I can tell you what I was taught, in a nutshell.

Basically, after human government ends (we are living in a hands-off "trial" period where we get to govern ourselves and see how good we do), there will be what's called "a resurrection of the righteous and of the unrighteous".

This would allow anyone who never had the opportunity to learn about God to be returned to life, and taught by those who survived Armageddon. They would then be presented with a choice of following God forever or dying a second and final time. Apparently, not everyone will choose life. The bible says that at the end of this period the Devil would be released one final time. It says that he will manage to turn many against God even tho they will have to know he exists (he resurrected them!). After that the Devil and his followers would be erased from existence forever (no concept of "hell" or eternal damnation).

I must admit this is where I have some trouble understanding. If I'd been resurrected, and I therefore knew for a fact that God existed, had power over life and death, and cared enough about me to bring me back to life, what chance would there be of my turning against him? Surely it would be different from those who have not seen irrefutable proof such as those living today? But there I should ask someone who has studied more than I have.

 

[e36Adz]

Is that really what you're taught?

Because that would mean that all the fighting between muslims and non-muslims is Allahs doing too... that he wills it to happen?

Surely that can't be what you're saying?

What he is saying is, that everything happens by the will of God. Nothing can happen if God does not will it to happen. Your heart cannot beat, we cannot talk, walk, it can't rain, snow, the sun can't rise or set, NOTHING can happen unless by Gods will.

Saying that though, if you decide to rob your next door neighbour, that doesn't mean you were forced to do it by God. He has simply allowed for you to do it, he has given you free will to choose, and He will bring you to account for it.

If you want a Christian answer to this, I can tell you what I was taught, in a nutshell...

Most of that is the complete opposite of what Christianity teaches. Are you a Christian and saying that you do not believe in hell?

 

[izzy eckerslike]

For the creationists & god believers:

Evolution is proven in humans, proof that we evolved from Ape like creatures. did you know that you still have remnants of those creatures in your body today ?

common in birds,reptiles & fish is a 3rd eyelid, we humans have a now non working remnant of the 3rd eyelid.

you know how cats & most other animals can swivel their ears to listen without turning their head ?
we humans still have all those muscles in our ears but now thay have evolved to be so week that at most we can just wriggle them.



You know we all have the remnant of a human tail called the coccyx ?

you have an appendix in your abdomen, it serves no purpose now but it's original purpose was to help break down cellulose in the leaf rich diet we once had.

there are a few more including part of our feet, DNA, teeth

& even goose bumps, why do we have them ? A remnant from when we were all covered in body hair & when threatened we would have 'raised our hackles' like a cat does to appear bigger & more threatening.
Humans no longer benefit from goose bumps and they are simply left over from our past when we were not clothed and needed to scare our own natural enemies. Natural selection removed the thick hair but left behind the mechanism for controlling it.

 

[FoxEye]

What he is saying is, that everything happens by the will of God. Nothing can happen if God does not will it to happen. Your heart cannot beat, we cannot talk, walk, it can't rain, snow, the sun can't rise or set, NOTHING can happen unless by Gods will.

Saying that though, if you decide to rob your next door neighbour, that doesn't mean you were forced to do it by God. He has simply allowed for you to do it, he has given you free will to choose, and He will bring you to account for it.

But there are also things that happen that God allows to happen, but does not condone. To "will" something to happen is, as I understand the meaning of the word, to want it to happen.

Thus I would say that it is God's will for us to currently be in complete control of our actions, but some of the things we do are utterly against what he would wish us to do. And he takes no pleasure in watching our suffering. Moreover this part of our history was never in his original plan for us, it was due to exceptional circumstances (a failed coup against him), that this period of testing became necessary.

So you can't say "God wills for murderers to murder". I know you didn't say that, neither did the other chap, but you have to make sure your language can't be mis-interpreted.

 

[FoxEye]

Most of that is the complete opposite of what Christianity teaches. Are you a Christian and saying that you do not believe in hell?

Yes. The concept of "hell" is a creation of the churches who desired control over the people. "Donate to the church or you'll burn forever in hell!" Etc.

There is no reconciling the concept of eternal damnation with a god of love. The Bible does say that "God is love". Moreover eternal suffering would be a dis-proportionate punishment for any amount of evil you could do in a finite lifetime.

Thus it would contradict another Bible teaching that God's justice is perfect.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

The concept of days, referred to in the Quran (and Bible) when speaking of the creation of the heavens and the earth, does not translate to our 24 hr days since the sun itself had not been created. The Quran speaks of different dimensions of space/time which all exist alongside each other. Our own perception of time will change drastically after we die, it is said once we are raised up and questioned how long we lived on earth, man will reply 'a day or part of day'.

?

So the Earth appeared before the sun, lol that just about sums it up & the more you quote the Quran the bigger hole you dig for yourself

 

[e36Adz]

But there are also things that happen that God allows to happen, but does not condone. To "will" something to happen is, as I understand the meaning of the word, to want it to happen.

Thus I would say that it is God's will for us to currently be in complete control of our actions, but some of the things we do are utterly against what he would wish us to do. And he takes no pleasure in watching our suffering. Moreover this part of our history was never in his original plan for us, it was due to exceptional circumstances (a failed coup against him), that this period of testing became necessary.

So you can't say "God wills for murderers to murder". I know you didn't say that, neither did the other chap, but you have to make sure your language can't be mis-interpreted.

I see what you are saying it is definately a case of same word, different meaning. When I say that something happens by 'Gods will', I mean that it could never have happened otherwise, because nothing can happen without God 'allowing' it to happen.

 

[e36Adz]

So the Earth appeared before the sun, lol that just about sums it up & the more you quote the Quran the bigger hole you dig for yourself

Mate, please quote what I say. Where did I say the earth was created before the sun, where???

The Quran says that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is between in 6 days, and no fatigue touched Him. Whereas the Bible says God rested on the 7th day. I said nothing like the earth was created before the sun, neither did the thought enter my head.

 

[e36Adz]

Yes. The concept of "hell" is a creation of the churches who desired control over the people. "Donate to the church or you'll burn forever in hell!" Etc.

There is no reconciling the concept of eternal damnation with a god of love. The Bible does say that "God is love". Moreover eternal suffering would be a dis-proportionate punishment for any amount of evil you could do in a finite lifetime.

Thus it would contradict another Bible teaching that God's justice is perfect.

Forget the church completely for a second, and go to your holy scripture. Does the Bible not speak of punishment in hell? Do you also not believe in the Bible? If so, why do you call yourself a Christian?

 

[FoxEye]

Forget the church completely for a second, and go to your holy scripture. Does the Bible not speak of punishment in hell? Do you also not believe in the Bible? If so, why do you call yourself a Christian?

Yes. There are verses which compare death as akin to "being asleep", there are also verses which say they are "conscious of nothing", and there are verses which say the dead cannot take any actions.

Which would all run contrary to the idea of "hell".

Moreover, as I said before, the "God of love" would no more condemn us to eternal suffering than we would condemn each other to eternal suffering. It isn't just, as I pointed out.

 

[bhavv]

The concept of days, referred to in the Quran (and Bible) when speaking of the creation of the heavens and the earth, does not translate to our 24 hr days since the sun itself had not been created. The Quran speaks of different dimensions of space/time which all exist alongside each other. Our own perception of time will change drastically after we die, it is said once we are raised up and questioned how long we lived on earth, man will reply 'a day or part of day'.

I completely disagree with this absolutely ridiculous explanation that religious nutters keep on giving to me. The Bible was written a long time after 1 AD, the Koran around 600 AD???

At these times, humans fully understood the concept of the night and day cycle. They knew that a whole day was divided into light and dark, and how long each one lasted for.

When the bible and koran were written, the referal to the word 'day' was fully what was understood to be the concept of the word 'day' at the time of writing, that is one whole night + daylight cycle of 24 hours = 1 day.

 

[bhavv]

What he is saying is, that everything happens by the will of God. Nothing can happen if God does not will it to happen. Your heart cannot beat, we cannot talk, walk, it can't rain, snow, the sun can't rise or set, NOTHING can happen unless by Gods will.

Seriously, none of those things are controlled by any God. We fully understand how the human body works / how the heart beats / how we can walk and talk. We fully understand how the weather works - how it rains, snows, how the world goes around etc.

None of that is caused or attributable to any concept of God, anyone that genuinely believes that those things happen at the will of God is a complete moron.

 

[NeilF]

If you want a Christian answer to this, I can tell you what I was taught, in a nutshell.

Basically, after human government ends (we are living in a hands-off "trial" period where we get to govern ourselves and see how good we do), there will be what's called "a resurrection of the righteous and of the unrighteous".

This would allow anyone who never had the opportunity to learn about God to be returned to life, and taught by those who survived Armageddon. They would then be presented with a choice of following God forever or dying a second and final time. Apparently, not everyone will choose life. The bible says that at the end of this period the Devil would be released one final time. It says that he will manage to turn many against God even tho they will have to know he exists (he resurrected them!). After that the Devil and his followers would be erased from existence forever (no concept of "hell" or eternal damnation).

I must admit this is where I have some trouble understanding. If I'd been resurrected, and I therefore knew for a fact that God existed, had power over life and death, and cared enough about me to bring me back to life, what chance would there be of my turning against him? Surely it would be different from those who have not seen irrefutable proof such as those living today? But there I should ask someone who has studied more than I have.

Can you not see tThe question still stands though! Had I been born into a truly religious era, into a perfect situation which led me almost without thought to dedicate the rest of my life without question to religion, how is that fair say compared to someone who is born into the opposite of this? Even if they are given some sort of second chance, surely it's not as preferable as the 'golden ticket' our first individual had?

And what about individuals who witness a miracle or visitation from a holy being? Again, 'golden tickets'. Why do they get one?

And all this, in a scenario where God has absolutely outdone himself in hiding his very existance away! To the extent it actually makes more logical sense to not believe! But had I been born 500yrs ago, of course before so many of Gods mysteries had been dispelled, would I have had that hurdle to jump? No...

 

[/\ndy]

honestly wtf you people on about? The thread only started about drawing muhammed, here you are banging on about god and the universe, seriously stfu.

 

[bhavv]

Well, a thread about drawing muhammed is going to lead to that.

Heres a great video on the discussion of Drawing muhammed and free speech:

 

[FoxEye]

Seriously, none of those things are controlled by any God. We fully understand how the human body works / how the heart beats / how we can walk and talk. We fully understand how the weather works - how it rains, snows, how the world goes around etc.

None of that is caused or attributable to any concept of God, anyone that genuinely believes that those things happen at the will of God is a complete moron.

When your windows7 computer automatically starts defragging your hard drive, nobody says "Microsoft are controlling my computer making it defrag." Of course they aren't. Microsoft designed Windows7 to be able to act in this way without direct intervention from Redmond.

In the same way, why is not possible for God to have designed the Earth with semi-autonomous systems, like the weather, tectonic movements, etc.

If Microsoft can do it, surely God can do it too?

 

[Stevio]

Seriously, none of those things are controlled by any God. We fully understand how the human body works / how the heart beats / how we can walk and talk. We fully understand how the weather works - how it rains, snows, how the world goes around etc.

Then why does the weather forecast get it wrong so often?

 

[bhavv]

Then why does the weather forecast get it wrong so often?

Completely ridiculous statement. Because weather isnt always predictable, but we do understand what causes precipitation and wind, hint: It isnt God.

 

[Stevio]

... snip...


Which religion are these people who believe in the 'theory of evolution?' In that man and ape evolved from a common ancestor? They are certainly not christian, muslim or jewish. If they claim to be, they are hypocrites nothing more, so although it is pleasing to you to accept them as 'religious people' because they have gone against the very thing they claim to follow, believe me they cannot be taken seriously. They are even worse then non believers who are at least honest about their belief, instead of saying we believe in THIS then deciding well this part doesn't quite fit for us so we will conveniently leave this part out or change it.

...snip...

Can you not accept that people believe that evolution is the way god made man?

You say that there was no concept of the day before created it, so why can't the day god mad man be the period of time that man evolved from lower life forms into what we are today?

 

[bhavv]

When your windows7 computer automatically starts defragging your hard drive, nobody says "Microsoft are controlling my computer making it defrag." Of course they aren't. Microsoft designed Windows7 to be able to act in this way without direct intervention from Redmond.

In the same way, why is not possible for God to have designed the Earth with semi-autonomous systems, like the weather, tectonic movements, etc.

If Microsoft can do it, surely God can do it too?

Windows is a program created by Microsoft, that is a provable fact.

Humans are not a program created by any kind of 'designer'. I usually find people who believe that to be braindead morons as well, with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of either Earth Science or Human Bilogy.