Soldato
so it still happens lol.....this isn't punishing a woman for a crime she commited is it.
oh wait its the WOMANS fault that her husband died no matter how he died
May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’
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so it still happens lol.....this isn't punishing a woman for a crime she commited is it.
oh wait its the WOMANS fault that her husband died no matter how he died
Soldato
so it still happens lol.....this isn't punishing a woman for a crime she commited is it.
oh wait its the WOMANS fault that her husband died no matter how he died
there's no comparison with the outlawed practice of 'Sati 'which in the past saw women of noble birth willingly enter the funeral pyre of their dead husband.
A visit to the old Indian princely states will show you records of this & also records of hundreds of Rajput women entering a mass burning within the walls of a fort rather than be captured by Invading Moghuls when defeat was imminent
India has outlawed this practice & it's unheard of today whereas the barbaric practice of female circumcision on 6 year old girls using a razor blade is carried on all over Islamic Africa even though governments such as the Sudan have banned it.
Google this & be prepared for sickening videos of screaming children being held down by village elders & have ther clitoris hacked off so they grow up with no sexual feeling & therefore will not be adulterous :rolleyes
What an incredibly weak argument. Sure we still have sexism in the UK, however compare it to the legal status and social status of women in the majority of Islamic states. I find it utterly bizarre that you are able to justify poor treatment by saying "Well, we do it to, a little, I guess." Are you honestly trying to compare Islamic nations today to the UK and say they treat their records on womens rights are in any way comparable? You did much the same earlier for homosexuality too.
And despite that they are also, on the whole, very sexist states. Moderate, non-sharia Islam is still inherently sexist, much more so than even Catholicism. This is just such an obvious thing I do wonder why or how someone would argue it isn't.
Soldato
without fully reading your post if your Hindu then my apologies as my intent was not to cause offense to Hindu people.
i did a quick google of it and posted without researching any facts whatsoever.....it was to show to bhaav that anybody can post rubbish by googling to slate others in the same way he has been doing.
Actually I'm pretty suprised that you assume I am justifying this behaviour.
I am simply saying it is not exclusive to Islam, like some here, including you it now seems and that blaming poor treatment of women exclusively on Islam is a justifiable position. I am stating that as it can be seen in other religions and cultures other than Islam shows it is a cultural and societial problem in general, Relgion is a tool used to further all sorts of injustice and hatred. Islam is no different from any other Religion in this way. It is not inherently evil as some, including it seems you would have us believe.
Because it is not obvious at all. Islam treats the obligations of men and women far more equally that catholism where they cannot even get divorced technically. You assume something that is just not true.
Turkey gave full political rights to women before most other countries in the world, The Turkish constitution bans all kinds of discrimnation against women. In Malta an EU country women cannot even initiate a divorce legally.
The treatment of women is again down to Cultural and Educational discrimination and prejudices rather than some inate sexism in the Qur'an.
Male dominated societies have used religion as a tool to subjugate women throughout History, it is a socio-cultural problem and not a religious one. The same is true of homosexuality and other differences.
The Ethnic violence in Kyrgistan currently is a good example.
Again you cannot seem to see the differencee between cultural interpretation of a religion and the moderate interpretation.
Its not all so black and white, no matter how you wish to portray it.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_roles_ideals.htm
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Was joining in on the midnight hi jinx, didn't realise it was reserved for you and your friend.
I agree with him 100% but don't expect anything to change.
Soldato
No worries my friend, I have seen the light & have banished involvement in religion from my life forever
I am just going from your posts. Which seem to be "Well, it is just like or not as bad as example b." It seems very much like typical apologist talk, deflecting criticism by comparison. Unfortunately your comparisons don't seem to work so well because you seem to be comparing them to things that are not as bad.
I love the oh so subtle "disappointed to find you hold such views" way you have written this paragraph. Very amusing. Also wrong, but don't let that worry you. I do not think Islam is inherently evil, I do however think it is inherently sexist and inherently homophobic. I think the same of many Christian denominations too. However Christianity has some more leeway as the Holy Book is a touch more ambiguous and, while divinely inspired, is not considered the literal word of God. Christianity aslo has the advantage of not being used as a political tool by the actual subject of the religion where it is very obvious that Islam was used as such by Mohammed. If you throw the Hadiths in to it as well it gets even worse.
The Koran is inherently more sexist than the New Testament. That is a fact. Taking them both as a starting point you are already on a worse basis with the Koran. Throw in the cultural bias on top of that and you are in serious trouble. Your point about divorce is a bit odd too as in Catholicism no one can get divorced technically regardless of gender, so how is that sexist?
And much like your point with regards to homosexuality in Turkey you make the mistake of confusing with is legal with what actually happens. The evidence is pretty clear, pretty much all Islamic states suffer from discrimination towards women and homosexuals much more seriously than secular western nations.
It still doesn't excuse the fact that there is inate sexism in the Koran.
I am fully aware of the cultural impact and I am also fully aware that it is not black and white. But it still doesn't take away from the fact that Koran itself is inherently sexist and this can colour even moderate interpretations. Consider how many moderate muslims accept segregated mosques and the frankly insulting idea that gazing on a woman's "beauty" would prevent a man concentrating on something.
You confuse justification with comparision. Hardly my fault. The context is that Bhavv etc are stating categorically that the Islamist and Fundamentalist interpretations of the Qur'an are the norm, the comparisons with other religions and ideologies should be taken in that context.
I am only going by your posts.
The Old testament is considered the literal word of God as told to Moses.
You make the same judgement that all Muslims take the word of the Qur'an literally, they do not.
You do not think that various Popes have not used the Catholic religion for political means, or that Henry VIII didn't create and use Anglicanism for the same ends?
The Bible is made up of the Old and New Testament however and must be judged as such.
Read deuteronomy on the laws of divorce before making that judgement. Also the subordinate position of women is evident throughout the Bible.
By secular western countries you must mean France, because they are the only one.
The US suffer from massive problems with Homophobia and all countries regardless of ideology suffer from violence against women, how it is justified by the perpetrators is different that is all. You also must consider the relative education and literacy levels of the conflicting countries, this has more to do with the lack of human rights and things such as homophobia and prejudice than is being stated here.
You make the case that it is the system of Governance based on the Qur'an in Islamic states that is the problem, yet contradict yourself with your comment on my confusing legality with reality.
Not the point, as it is the interpretation that is relevent, as is the interpretation of the Old Testament or of the Torah with regard to outdated ideology and how it relates to modern society. There is cultural bias in all the holy books, it is the interpretation of them that is where the blame lies, not in the words themselves.
Modest dress is actually required for men and women, no distinction is made, so another myth discounted. Most Muslims take a view that dressing modestly is relative to the country or society in which you live and act accordingly, this is also seen in everyday life, what would be acceptable to go to a party would not be acceptable at prayer for example. The same is true of Men.
Things like the Veil, burka and Hijab predate the Qur'an and are cultural, not Islamic in origin. Moderate muslims beleive that the Quran when it speaks of Women 'taking the veil' it is refering to Mohammad's wifes only as no other woman actually wore them during his life.
Again it is interpretation of the Qur'an and Islam from a cultural aspect and bias that is the over-riding problem here, and not the religion in isolation. That is the point I am trying to make here.
Anyway I feel that my point is made and we have begun to go around in circles somewhat, so I will leave it there for now. We will have to disagree on some points and agree on others. My main contention is that you cannot blame the entire body of Islam for the actions and prejudices of a minority, just as we would not blame all christians for the slaughter in West and Central Africa the same should be afforded to Muslims who do not ascribe to such extremist viewpoints.
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If you had put that at the start of your post it would have saved me the effort of reading it and you writing it.
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Looks like the crazy Islamists in Somalia are killing people for watching the world cup now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/10307512.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/10307512.stm
We could really do without religion! I'm certain the world would be a better place!
mankind will just find something else to fight about. religion is just used as a justification its not the cause of problems.
Really?
Caporegime
Yes... Really...
Explain to me how the delusion helps?
Just because you find it delusional does not mean millions of other people find religion delusional.
Try and keep it in context...you sound like a raging daily fail reader in all honesty.
Missing the point again I see... The question at hand was would the world be a better place without religion?
My point was how does religion make it better?
At this point we get the only real answer religion seems to give us - It gives people comfort. Not much of an answer really is it. Sounds more like a placebo?
Whereas, without religion, we actually start to see life for what it truly is, and more importantly life is given its true value - ie: There really is no second chance, no life after death, it is ultimately valuable and precious.
And nutters get one less 'tool' to use to achieve their goals... ie: I'm here on behave of the big G... He told me to kill all that lot over there, for not bowing on Monday mornings...
Soldato
I have to agree with NeilFawcet,
without religion there would not be the so called 'misinterpretations' of holy books which give extremists the justification they think they need.
We are talking of Islamic extremists here as usual are we not ?
They follow the teachings of the Koran just like millions of others and read into it things that others choose to ignore or deny the existence of.
It's just the same with Christians, they will deny just about anything that disagrees with the bible & this is why both religions are so fundamentally flawed because being based on the written word of common man in the distant past is no justification whatsoever for claiming proof of god
so why do we apparently need religion so desperately ?
where is there the slightest flicker of proof that there is an almighty god in the same way that the ancients worshiped Apollo & Ra & countless others all now under the heading of 'Mythology'
Were not these Egyptians & Greeks at the very forefront of advanced civilisation at that time while vast areas of the world still lived in caves ? & yet their beliefs are now considered mythology; can you not see a comparison with what you believe ?
Where is the slightest flicker of proof that there is an afterlife, that people have seen Angels, that they have had visions of holy Mary, that ghosts exist, that god has spoken to them etc. that all mediums are not fakes ?
The answer is that there is none although the world is full of charlatons who will easily dupe the simple minded into parting with cash in a Gypsy caravan, or wil travel to the worlds biggest religious con which is Lourdes, all based on the dillusions of a simple peasant girl & now a multi million dollar cash cow.
I do not need to show proof that there is no god anymore than I need to show proof that there are no fire breathing dragons or mermaids along with dozens more comparisons do I ?
I expect you will you accuse me of been close minded but in actual fact the reverse is true. Are any of you fervently religious guys not totally close minded & blinded by your undying faith in something which clearly belongs in the distant past along with fire breathing dragons & mermaids ?
I have never seen a being from another planet & yet I have no doubt whatsoever that we are not alone in this vast universe because the odds are so stacked in it's favour but do I even need consider for one second that there is an invisible supreme being overseeing the universe ?
without religion there would not be the so called 'misinterpretations' of holy books which give extremists the justification they think they need.
We are talking of Islamic extremists here as usual are we not ?
They follow the teachings of the Koran just like millions of others and read into it things that others choose to ignore or deny the existence of.
It's just the same with Christians, they will deny just about anything that disagrees with the bible & this is why both religions are so fundamentally flawed because being based on the written word of common man in the distant past is no justification whatsoever for claiming proof of god
so why do we apparently need religion so desperately ?
where is there the slightest flicker of proof that there is an almighty god in the same way that the ancients worshiped Apollo & Ra & countless others all now under the heading of 'Mythology'
Were not these Egyptians & Greeks at the very forefront of advanced civilisation at that time while vast areas of the world still lived in caves ? & yet their beliefs are now considered mythology; can you not see a comparison with what you believe ?
Where is the slightest flicker of proof that there is an afterlife, that people have seen Angels, that they have had visions of holy Mary, that ghosts exist, that god has spoken to them etc. that all mediums are not fakes ?
The answer is that there is none although the world is full of charlatons who will easily dupe the simple minded into parting with cash in a Gypsy caravan, or wil travel to the worlds biggest religious con which is Lourdes, all based on the dillusions of a simple peasant girl & now a multi million dollar cash cow.
I do not need to show proof that there is no god anymore than I need to show proof that there are no fire breathing dragons or mermaids along with dozens more comparisons do I ?
I expect you will you accuse me of been close minded but in actual fact the reverse is true. Are any of you fervently religious guys not totally close minded & blinded by your undying faith in something which clearly belongs in the distant past along with fire breathing dragons & mermaids ?
I have never seen a being from another planet & yet I have no doubt whatsoever that we are not alone in this vast universe because the odds are so stacked in it's favour but do I even need consider for one second that there is an invisible supreme being overseeing the universe ?
you seem to think that religion is the only cause of the world problems
What about race roits? nothing to with religion
The war on iraq? that was about WMDs
Imagine a world without religion for a second, you really think there will be any peace,
that the war industry will be shut down, that there will be no more guns,crime,tanks,
you really think without religon there will be no need for an army.
of course not becuase mankind will find any excuse to to fight and argue
What about race roits? nothing to with religion
The war on iraq? that was about WMDs
Imagine a world without religion for a second, you really think there will be any peace,
that the war industry will be shut down, that there will be no more guns,crime,tanks,
you really think without religon there will be no need for an army.
of course not becuase mankind will find any excuse to to fight and argue
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